2016 Hellcat Paint Correction, Start...Finish

Discussion in 'SRT Hellcat Detailing' started by TallCool1, Nov 21, 2015.

  1. TallCool1

    TallCool1 Gold Member Hellcat Car Club Gold Supporting Member Nat'l Hellcat Tech Advisor HCC Charter Member

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    This is start post.

    My 2016 car's paint is in much worse condition from factory, compared to my 2015. (I tend to think the 1st run cars got more attn. to detail based on what I hear and see.)

    The worst part is Orange peel, in many places. Plus 3 spots hit with a polisher (suspect after production after rail, as part of fca change to delivery effective early 11/15) involving "detail" and inspection.) (Detail, yeah... Not.) Then front interior lip of hood you can see missing base paint. (That 1 earned me a new hood we'll see how good that is when I receive it.) (Keeping old one I'll likely play with it.)

    Anyway decided to create a post that will show process start...finish what goes into taking a car from condition mine is in, to show level quality.

    I just metered the paint using a uptg. Paint around 114um average. Clear coat 57um. That was a surprise. Enough is there to work with.

    Heading out while I have a few days of good weather to get ready for what appears will be quite a chore, starting with base clean, pics, and getting ready for paint correction. Guessing 60...80 hours here (at snail pace) before moving onto finish work. Weeee....
     
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  2. Rob440Magnum

    Rob440Magnum Silver Member

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    I thought the only way to know the thickness of the clearcoat is to measure than sand the clear until your get to the base/color coat and then measure again. The difference would then be the thickness of the clear.

    So are you planning on wet-sanding the clear completely flat eliminating all orange peel, like you would for a show car? If so keep us posted if you sand thru the clear into the basecoat.
     
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  3. TallCool1

    TallCool1 Gold Member Hellcat Car Club Gold Supporting Member Nat'l Hellcat Tech Advisor HCC Charter Member

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    It's going to be a big job no doubt. The uptg I used has 2 methods to differentiate substrate not your average bear.

    Funny thing, the engine is immaculate no cast residue everything shiny, much better finish work then the 2015.

    Unsure if I have to remove clear coat.
     
  4. TallCool1

    TallCool1 Gold Member Hellcat Car Club Gold Supporting Member Nat'l Hellcat Tech Advisor HCC Charter Member

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    This is going to be a difficult job :(

    I have a few pros coming over this week now that I've cleaned off the transport dirt etc. To discuss options.

    I don't want to do anything that will affect the value of the car down the road. Incorrectly done that could happen.

    The 2015 needed no wet sanding. I may get by with 3200. Leaving some clear in tact. Dunno I'm anal on finishes. So maybe I see it as a train wreck where people with a ton more experience then me would not. So best to get a few opinions.

    I'll snap pics soon.

    Disappointed; letters, pics and details will be sent to FCA. For a car that's a hallmark success, FCA needs to think hard about paint qc.

    John Dodge someone should be reaching out. This is HC purchase #2. I've always helped you (should) know that by now. Reciprocating goes a long way.
     
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  5. FarAwayFromHere

    FarAwayFromHere Gold Member

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    I Am Starting To Feel Some Pain.....
    OUCH!
    Unbelievable John Dodge | SRT Hellcat Forum how Can This Happen,Clean Up The Paint Booth Already,Robots Cannot Clean!
     
  6. Carnage

    Carnage SRT Hellcat Supercharged Moderator Staff Member Hellcat Car Club Gold Supporting Member HCC Charter Member

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    Charles in charge I'm sorry to hear brother I sincerely hope what you do will get ppl to come and fix everything
     
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  7. Toolman_42

    Toolman_42 Gold Member

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    I'm seeing orange peel all over the sides of my Charger. Only thing clear is flat surfaces (hood, roof, and trunk). Don't even want to try and correct.
     
  8. TallCool1

    TallCool1 Gold Member Hellcat Car Club Gold Supporting Member Nat'l Hellcat Tech Advisor HCC Charter Member

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    Check the flat areas where they transistion and bend.
     
  9. C. Charles Hahn

    C. Charles Hahn Silver Member Hellcat Supporting Vendor

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    A couple thoughts I would offer, here.

    Remember that although these cars sell for $60-70k+, they still roll down the same assembly line as base model Challengers and Chargers which sell for half of that value; the bodies and paint are essentially the same across the range. Unfortunately FCA isn't likely to make a major investment in the plant's paint facilities so that Hellcats can come from the factory with 'show quality finishes' when most of the plant's production is destined for Police departments and the Hertz lot at the airport.

    For that matter, those of you/us who have ever seen factory original Mopar muscle cars from back in the late 60s and 70s can attest that they, too, had their share of flaws from the factory. Most of the classic Chargers and Challengers on the market now have been 'over-restored' with regard to their paint finishes -- which is a great thing for those of us with OCD, but it may give somewhat unrealistic expectations for what a factory production car should be, even in 2015-16. Let's face it, the Hellcat is a major bargain for a car with 707HP... some trade-offs had to be made for them to offer it at less than Ferrari prices (and even Ferraris typically have finish issues from the factory).

    Having said all that, I am also NOT an advocate of doing aggressive wet sanding on factory clear coat.

    Due to the chemistry of clear coat finishes, the UV inhibitors will migrate to the surface of the film build, and once dissipated, the clear coat is more likely to fail prematurely. For that reason, manufacturers will typically specify a maximum amount of clear that can be removed (lifetime) before the warranty on the finish becomes void. In the case of Chrysler, that is 0.5 mil, or 12.7 microns. Given the concern of not wanting to negatively impact the value of your vehicle, you will want to take into account that lifetime wiggle room when deciding how much material you really want to remove initially. A large improvement can likely be made without removing too much paint, but I wouldn't expect, or even aim for, a dead flat finish.

    I hope all of this gives you some perspective on things; best of luck with your situation!
     
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  10. Aarcuda

    Aarcuda Gold Member

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    I agree 100% I was considering wet sanding and compounding and polishing mine as well until I researched it a little and came to the understanding that the UV protection would be reduced since most of the UV inhibitors are near to the surface of the clear coat. I found this info on several detailing sites so Mr Hahns post falls right in line with that.

    So what can we do? Should we just stick to polishing the existing clear with a medium to light polish?

    Wet sand with some 3000 or even 5000 trizact? or is that too much? 3™ Trizact™ Foam Discs 5000 FAQs - Auto Geek Online Auto Detailing Forum

    Im waiting (actually I cant do anything since my cars still in the shop (3 three weeks now) for a tire imbalance) for the best solution. I have a nice snapon rotary that I can dial in the max speed w a dial and variable trigger along with 3m Perfect-it III machine glaze, Perfect-it Ultra-Fine Machine Polish with Perfect-it Ultrafine Polishing pad, Perfect-It II Foam Polishing Pad Glaze with a Perfect-It Foam Polishing Pad and Perfect it III Extra Cut Rubbing Compound with a Perfect-it Foam Compound Pad. I also have a number of different Maquires products pure (PlastZ, Show Car Glaze, Cleaner waxes, Gold Class carnuba wax, clay bars, etc. Also have a porter cable 7424 XP DA with pads form cutting to polishing. Basically I have enough to handle most everything.
     
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  11. TallCool1

    TallCool1 Gold Member Hellcat Car Club Gold Supporting Member Nat'l Hellcat Tech Advisor HCC Charter Member

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    I appreciate your feedback Charles. I'll likely bag wet sanding and just focus on finish correction and live with it.
     
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  12. C. Charles Hahn

    C. Charles Hahn Silver Member Hellcat Supporting Vendor

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    The possibilities of what you can do really are endless; if you really want to achieve a totally flat finish and don't mind the expense, it wouldn't be unheard of to have additional clear coat applied over the factory finish so that you can safely level it through sanding and polishing. Otherwise, it's a matter of deciding how much texture you're willing to live with. I'll expand on that more in a minute.

    The answer to that question is "it depends." 3000 grit or finer is certainly far *safer* to use than 1500-2000 grit sanding, because it removes less material per pass... but you can still go too far if you aren't monitoring your progress. You could, in theory, fully flatten the finish with 3000 grit sandpaper, you'll just be there a while in order to do it.

    I put together a (somewhat crudely hand-drawn) diagram to demonstrate what texture leveling looks like from a 'side view' perspective:

    [​IMG]

    The top line (1) represents orange peel texture that has not been compounded or polished. Notice that the 'peaks' are very narrow, and the 'valleys' are quite deep.

    The middle line (2) shows paint that has been sanded partially level; note that the valleys are much more shallow, and the peaks are wide and flat. When compared to the top line, this finish will be much more reflective, although certainly not texture-free. The shallower the valleys and flatter the peaks, the less texture you'll see.

    That brings us to line (3), highlighting the dilemma presented by choosing how much sanding/material removal we want to do. Unfortunately, we don't know or have a good way to measure how deep the total texture is unless we start sanding and measure progress. Given that the texture could be 5, 10, 15, or more microns deep, it leaves us at risk of removing too much paint (by the standard of factory/warranty guidelines) if we try to get all the way to the bottom of it. Even removing 1-2 microns through compounding/polishing can make a noticeable improvement in gloss, depth, and reflectivity -- referred to in industry terms as DOI or 'Distinctness of Image' -- or you can go a bit further depending on your comfort level. The dotted lines in the diagram illustrate that effect.

    This also shows why many of us who are professional detailers preach about the use of proper maintenance techniques to minimize future damage; in the case of factory paint we want to give as much future life to the finish as possible by removing as little paint as is necessary. Coatings like CQuartz are immensely helpful in this endeavor as well since they add 1-2 microns of measurable protection (with further UV stability) as a sacrificial barrier on top of the clear coat.

    Sounds like you're definitely well equipped! I'm not a big fan of 3M's compounds and polishes personally, but I also know many people for whom they are quite effective when used correctly.
     
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  13. hellbound

    hellbound BANNED

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    Can u come work on my car..haha...thats some education there.... U whipped it buddy... I just learned more than i ever have tryin to talk in person to anybody i could pester
     
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  14. SC DETAILEL

    SC DETAILEL Senior Hellcat Member

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    Knowledge has just been dropped!!!!! C. Charles Hahn nailed it.

    HUMP
     
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  15. TallCool1

    TallCool1 Gold Member Hellcat Car Club Gold Supporting Member Nat'l Hellcat Tech Advisor HCC Charter Member

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    I'm not intimidated by the process or expense. Nor am I a rookie, or pro. It's finding someone I know would meet my expectations to clear coat the car. To get the finish I want. I live in what really is a small town. I'd likely have to travel to Portland, or down to CA. Which means using someone not local. Who I don't know.

    For now I'll likely do the minor imperfections myself. And the finish work to that. It does bum me out I cant purchase the best coatings (CQF, GTechniq Crystal, Modesta, pick your flavor) direct. I can save $ prepping for one, and then participating in their application.

    But I can see myself back to this in the summer, seeking a flat finish. We'll see.

    I'll use this thread to at least show what you can do yourself, with proper tools and training.
     
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