Speedlogix new bbs wheels?

Discussion in 'SRT Hellcat Wheels and Tires' started by ColeBartakovic, Apr 6, 2016.

  1. ColeBartakovic

    ColeBartakovic Senior Hellcat Member

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    BBS Performance Line CH-R 20''x10.5'' Wheel (Black) I really like these wheels but they are cast not forged. Pretty expensive for some wheels i can get forged. Anyone seen these wheels or had experience with them? And is cast wheels safe for hellcats?
     
  2. rich

    rich Silver Member

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    Forged are the only wheels i would use. Cast are not recommended for a hellcat with so much HP & Torque. Triumph Performance are a good choice.
     
  3. Toolman_42

    Toolman_42 Gold Member

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    Question: When you state cast are not recommended is there a reference source? FCA? Must meet wheel specs?
     
  4. HellScoot

    HellScoot Silver Member Hellcat Car Club HCC Charter Member

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    Pressure cast flow formed are stronger than just plain cast so these wheels maybe just fine. Depends on what your plans are for how you want to use the wheels on the car.
     
  5. Toolman_42

    Toolman_42 Gold Member

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    So gut feel?
    Is there any data or chasing urban legends?
    This often repeated...just haven't seen any real data points to prove it one way or other. Wheels can fail but there is usually a reason.
     
  6. HellScoot

    HellScoot Silver Member Hellcat Car Club HCC Charter Member

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    There are data points where flow formed or "Flow Forged" wheels have more strength based on load testing and this load rating. So lots of other factors through like over all weight and rotating mass. Generally for a racing application that is why a fully forged wheel is preferred for strength and weight savings. For situations like normal conservative street driving a quality us made cast wheel would be fine just like the OE replicas for example. And actually these are Canada made I believe. Racing and in specific track and autocross puts a whole lot more load on the wheel. So my opinion would be the BBS wheel while heavier with checking the load rating should hold up well in these conditions. Make sense?
     
  7. Toolman_42

    Toolman_42 Gold Member

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    So still no requirements. Any formulas for to get requirements using car weight, hp, torque, gear ratios, etc? Published Load facors?

    Opinions are unfortunately just that, opinions
     
  8. ColeBartakovic

    ColeBartakovic Senior Hellcat Member

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    I dont do track or drag racing, just some small pulls on the roads and red light pulls
     
  9. HellScoot

    HellScoot Silver Member Hellcat Car Club HCC Charter Member

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    Mr. Tool just for you....Happy Reading..

    Taken from Tunerology:
    Full Circle: Understanding Performance Wheel Design
    Unlike other components of cars today, the wheel is not a recent innovation. This simple device made transportation possible for thousands of years. Today, they’re the pretty round things that spin and keep your tires attached to your car. That may sound trivial, but a wheel’s job is pretty important—just ask any racing driver who’s left a pit stop without one. So even though their purpose seems simple, how wheels execute their simple task makes them a vital component of any performance automobile.

    [​IMG]The wheels transfer grip from the tires’ contact patches to your car. Accelerating, turning, and braking forces are all trying to twist and bend the wheels and bumps and potholes don’t make a wheel’s job any easier.

    Wheels are often one of the first upgrades owners make to increase vehicle performance. Wider wheels fit fatter tires, which increase grip and lower lap times. If you’re in the market to upgrade your vehicle’s wheels, where do you start?

    First, you need to find wheels that fit your car. Most wheel manufacturers offer an application guide that will help you narrow down the possibilities. If you’re doing a custom wheel fitment, you’ll need to get familiar with specifications like diameter, width, bolt pattern, and offset (or backspacing).

    Basic Wheel Measurements
    [​IMG]

    Wheel Diameter is the distance between the tire mounting surface across the wheels’ center

    Wheel Width is the distance between the inside and outside tire mounting flanges.

    Bolt Circle Diameter (or Mounting Pattern) is the number of mounting lugs and diameter of a circle on which the centers of all the lug holes are equally spaced. Examples: 5 lugs on a 4.5-inch circle, or 4 lugs on a 100mm circle.

    Offset is the distance between the wheel’s hub mounting surface and the width center line of the wheel.

    Back Spacing is the distance between the wheel’s hub mounting surface and the inside edge of the wheel.

    Wheel Construction
    One-piece
    wheels are the most common type. As the name suggests, the wheels are one piece. They are also known as “monoblock,” which is just a fancy name for a one-piece wheel. One-piece wheels can be stamped, cast, or forged out from various materials.

    Depending upon the material and manufacturing method, one-piece wheels have the greatest range in cost—from the least expensive steel or cast alloy wheels, to the most expensive forged magnesium or composite designs.

    Because material can be added to high-stress areas for rigidity, or removed from low stress areas to save weight, one-piece wheels generally have a higher stiffness-to-weight ratio than a multi-piece wheel.

    Three-piece wheels feature a separate center section, inner rim, and outer rim. Most multi-piece wheels feature a cast or forged alloy center section with formed, or “spun” aluminum sheet metal inner and outer rims, which are joined to the center section with a fastener.

    Inner and outer rims of different widths and diameters can be mixed and matched to create wheels of various widths and offsets to fit virtually any application without the need to create a custom, one-piece wheel.

    Additionally, since the major sections of the wheels are separate, the individual parts can be serviced or replaced as needed. By nature of their individual parts, three-piece wheels are more costly and time-consuming to produce in large volumes.

    Because the inner and outer rims are made of sheet metal, the material thickness is relatively constant along the rim, limiting the designer’s ability tailor the material’s thickness in high- and low-stress areas. So, the design of a three-piece wheel is a compromise between stiffness and weight.

    Forgeline’s David Schardt offers some insight comparing one-piece and three-piece wheels:

    “Flexibility is the main advantage of a three-piece wheel as you can make virtually any width and offset you can think off with different center and rim combinations.

    Whereas a one-piece wheel is limited to what wheel forging size is available and also what pad height is available on that forging. (to adjust offset). In other words, a typical wheel forging will be one width and will have an offset range. (i.e. – 18×11 with an offset range of +0mm to +50).

    [​IMG]
    A two-piece wheel incorporates a replaceable outer rim so that if the wheel is damaged while racing (like this BBS rear wheel on the Chip Ganassi Racing Ford EcoBoost Daytona prototype) the wheel can be repaired instead of discarded.

    [​IMG]“A three-piece wheel is also more customizable as you can finish each part a different way. For example: a gloss black center with a brushed lip and black inner. A one-piece wheel will typically be finished in only one color.

    “If you look at the same design in a three-piece and a one-piece design they’re the same fatigue strength. However a one-piece wheel is stiffer and will deflect less under high cornering loads.

    This matters a lot in a professional sports cars with very sophisticated suspensions. Similarly, in the same design a monoblock wheel will be lighter than a multi-piece wheel. Weight savings can range from 1 to 3 pounds.

    “The last comparison would be “repairability.” A curbed or bent three-piece wheel can be repaired easily by swapping out an inner or outer rim shell at a fraction of the price of a new wheel. A one-piece wheel typically needs to be replaced if it is damaged.”


    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Besides coming in various sizes, wheels are constructed in different ways to serve different purposes. Companies such as Forgeline Motorsports manufacturer custom wheels in a wide range of configurations for both street and competition.(one-piece wheel shown right, two-piece wheel shown left)

    Two-piece wheels are “hybrids” of one-piece and three-piece wheels that usually feature one part that comprises a center and inner rim, with a separate outer rim. Two-piece wheels combine the stiffness benefits of a one-piece wheel, with the serviceability of a 3-piece wheel. If the outer rim is bent or otherwise damaged (which happens often in racing), just the outer rim can be replaced.
    Wheel Fastening

    Most wheels are bolted to a car with multiple studs and a nuts; or in the case of cars, bolts. Center lock wheels are secured to the hubs with one fastener in the center of the wheel. In racing (where rules allow them), center lock wheels make wheel changes faster because fewer fasteners are required. Most OEMs don’t use center lock wheels because there’s only one fastener keeping the wheel where it belongs, however some Porsches are the exception.

    [​IMG]
    Though similar in outside appearance to a three-piece wheel, on this two-piece wheel used by Chip Ganassi Racing on their No. 01 Ford EcoBoost Riley, only the outer rim is separate.

    Wheel Materials

    The first wheels were stone and later wood, but those have given way to more advanced materials over the millennia such as aluminum, and magnesium.

    Cast Aluminum wheels are formed by pouring molten aluminum alloy into a mold. Variations on this process include the materials used for the mold, and the pressure at which the metal is introduced into the mold (e.g., pouring via gravity or injecting under pressure).

    Some cast wheels are further processed by drawing, or “flow forming” the wheel rim sections to add stiffness and form the wheel to the desired width.

    BBS Motorsport manufactures wheels for OEM, aftermarket, and racing customers in a wide range of materials. Craig Donnelly, the head of BBS of America, provided insight to the rationale behind material choices for different motorsports alloy wheels: “A cast, flow-formed wheel fits well into a spec series or a class that is more price sensitive.

    BBS has made cast, flow-formed wheels for the Ferrari 360 and 430 Challenge series cars and we also make other applications for track Mustangs [such as the B0SS 302S and 302R), Camaros, and also the factory Kia program [in Pirelli World Challenge].”

    Forged Aluminum wheels typically have a higher stiffness to weight ratio than cast aluminum wheels. The forging process involves squeezing a material between dies under tremendous heat and pressure to form a stronger part. Some wheels are made from forged “blanks” that are machined on CNC equipment that whittle away the material to form the wheel’s final shape. The advantage of using forged blanks is different wheel designs can be manufactured from the same blank.

    An alternative method is “die forging,” where a set of specialized dies are used to squeeze a cast blank into the final shape of the wheel. Since the dies form many of the structural features of the wheel (such as the spokes), the material’s grain structure follows suit, which results in a stronger, more durable part than machining the wheel from a forged blank.

    Die forged wheels require less follow-up machining, but the dies are extremely expensive to manufacture and maintain. Because each die-forged wheel design requires its own dies, a manufacturer has less flexibility to build wheels for different styles and applications.

    Schardt adds, “Forgeline wheels are machined from heat-treated 6061-T6 aluminum that is forged on a 6000-ton hydraulic press. This forging process aligns the grain structure, virtually eliminating porosity, and increases uniformity in the material.

    This creates the highest strength-to-weight ratio aluminum and the most consistent quality. On average, our forgings are 40percent stronger than cast aluminum. This allows us to use less material to obtain the same strength in a design creating a wheel that is potentially up to 40 percent lighter.

    “The largest drawbacks are forgings are significantly more expensive and lead times can be 12-14 weeks to acquire the raw material.”

    [​IMG]
    The Racers Edge Motorsports crew springs into action to swap a fresh set of wheels and tires onto the No. 78 Mustang BOSS 302R at Circuit of the Americas. Note that the wheel lug nuts are already attached to the cast and flow-formed 18 x 10” BBS wheel that the tire changer is carrying. The nuts are secured to the wheel with weatherstrip adhesive, which is strong enough to hold the lug nuts in place, but weak enough to release when the wheel is pushed over the studs. The result is all five lug nuts are left on end of the wheel studs, ready to be tightened with the air gun.

    Forged Magnesium wheels are manufactured using the same processes as aluminum wheels, but substituting magnesium alloys for aluminum alloys. Magnesium has a higher stiffness-to-weight ratio than aluminum, but it’s much more expensive. Magnesium is also more susceptible to corrosion, which can compromise a magnesium wheel’s long-term structural integrity.

    BBS’s Donnelly explains:

    “In the past, we used cast magnesium for Touring cars (DTM), Production race programs, and we also used cast magnesium one-piece wheels back in the old IMSA GTP days. However, the use of cast magnesium is much more limited at this time. Forged aluminum wheels have replaced much of the older cast magnesium applications that we serviced in the past.

    “Forged magnesium is the highest level technology BBS provides. Typical savings for a forged magnesium race wheel over a forged aluminum wheel i about 20 percent, or maybe slightly more depending on the application. As such, every Formula 1 car uses forged magnesium.

    Some of the bigger-budget factory programs in other series use a forged magnesium wheel over a forged aluminum wheel—just for the weight savings. However, some racing series regulations ban the use of forged magnesium, so using a forged aluminum wheel is the best approved technology.”

    Buying Considerations

    [​IMG]Besides just being round and keeping air in the tires, you can see wheels are an integral part of your car’s performance. Fitment, purpose, and budget are all considerations.

    One of the first things to consider is the primary purpose of your vehicle. Is it a racecar, or is it mostly street-driven? We asked Schardt to explain the difference between wheels designed for the street, and those destined for the track:

    “Race wheels are designed to maximize stiffness and strength while minimizing weight. ‘Looks’ or style is secondary. They have to hold up to very strenuous cornering loads, heat, and abuse. Most people vastly underestimate the loads a real racecar with slick tires can generate on a wheel. The loads exponentially increase with the grip level of the tires. Our race wheels are specifically designed for each application using factors such as weight of the vehicle, ground effects, type of tires used and the duration of the races.

    “Style is obviously more important in street wheel and we have to worry less about other factors like ‘slick tires’ and aerodynamic downforce,” said Schardt.

    Lots to consider, but luckily, performance wheel manufacturers are just a phone call away to help you find wheels to satisfy your corner-carving goals!

    Sources
    Forgeline Motorsports
    Phone: 800-886-0093
    BBS of America
    Phone: 877-832-8209
     
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  10. Toolman_42

    Toolman_42 Gold Member

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    All that text and still no hellcat requirements or details on what is needed to calculate requirements for specific driving tasks.. Just good, better, best descriptions.
     
  11. Tire God

    Tire God Hellcat Member

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    If your guys want the best, it's Carbon Revolution. You know the carbon fiber wheels for the GT350R and the new Ford GT. But if you don't want a set that cost 15k, forgeline makes nice mono block flow formed wheels. At a great price too.
     
  12. waiting for mine

    waiting for mine 10/30/15 DELIVERED ON DEVILS NIGHT

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    My neighbor is a engineer and he does wheel testing for several manufactures including fca fmc ferrari and tessla he has to told me that no aftermarket wheel made has to conform to the specs, quality or testing of a oem wheel. so its a crap shoot and id go with a aftermarket mfg with a proven track record.
     
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  13. MABBRYFL30

    MABBRYFL30 NYS President Hellcat Car Club Gold Supporting Member

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    Forged wheels as other members mentioned is what is required for these cars and made for these cars. Reference hellscoot post. That is one of the best responses information wise I have ever seen.
     
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  14. MABBRYFL30

    MABBRYFL30 NYS President Hellcat Car Club Gold Supporting Member

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    Thank you for taking the time to post this on the thread. I really appreciate your dedication for doing this
     
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  15. ColeBartakovic

    ColeBartakovic Senior Hellcat Member

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    I looked and saw 1000-1500 a piece?
     

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