[Hihoslvr18]

I’m in the process of buying this 2018 Charger HC from a dealer. The car has been modified with Carven exhaust, Whipple supercharger and a fore innovations fuel system from what I can tell so far. The dealership doesn’t know anything about it so I’m taking a shot in the dark to see if anyone recognizes it so I can find some information about it like what tuning has been done and other modifications. The title shows the last owner was in Iowa. It’s silver with carbon stripes. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Xylander]

I would urge extreme caution on this. I won't personally deal with cars modified as extensively as this one unless they're selling it for something like 35-40k. Even then, regardless if you find the old owner or not, pay well for a 3rd party specialist to fully inspect this vehicle before you make any offers. I'd order a full leakdown test, complete diagnostic inspection, undercarriage/suspension inspection... And clearly those tires are toast. Most people don't sell highly modified cars that cost tens of thousands to build to a dealer unless it has problems and they were just looking to trade and run.

 

[Hihoslvr18]

Absolutely. I have thought about that as well but it looks like the 2nd owner purchased the car for around 54k, did the mods and then drove it for 2 and a half years. They only put 5800 miles on it in that time period. I am currently looking for a notable shop between myself and the dealer that can look it over and actually know what they’re looking at. Thank you for the input!

 

[Xylander]

Just given the state of the tires and the tire choice, 5,800 miles may not seem like much, but mods like those are for drag racing. I believe the old saying goes, 1 pass at the drag strip = 100 miles of wear on the car.

For example, my '55 gasser only gets driven on the street maybe 100 miles per year. It only sees about 150 miles of use... of course that other 50 miles is chalked up 1/4 mile at a time. I've rebuilt its vintage 392 Hemi probably 6 or 7 times over the years and I don't think I've driven it 3,000 miles yet, and I've owned it since 1997

 

[Hihoslvr18]

All very true. That’s why I am hoping to find the previous owner. I figured they don’t have any ties to the dealership so they won’t mind telling me if there’s anything wrong with it or if they just beat the shit out of it lol. Trying to be optimistic while remaining very cautious.

 

[GreenMachine15]

Lol, you guys kill me how everything used with mods is the damn devil.
Worth only $35k because it has $10k in mods done LOL LOL LOL ????..???. A 15K MILE 2018? Where do you guys come up with this stuff?
Ivwould be on my way with my truck and trailer right now if it was $35k

Highly modified????
The car has exhaust tips and what they call aftermarket exhaust. Could be a mid muffler delete only.......

Does it have cats?

A fender mount oil catch can, fore fuel system, and a whipple with what size pulley?

Highly modified??? It has bolt ons.
We can call this non stock.

Is it setup on E85?

I bet it is by the fuel system.
I would call the big email tuners with the VIN and see if anybody knows anything about the car. See what pulley is on there and it should show what boost level it is running at or what you see on the gauge if it runs 100%.

Can you pay for a DMV check in IL to get the prior owners name and number?

If you were to purchase it, I would have all the info, including what fuel pump is in there, and call a tuner immediately or do an online one with someone who is a brand name.

I am not terrified of this car. If it is an auction car with zero history then it is a challenge more than a concern. Have the dealer be straight up with you if it was a trade in or an auction piece and they have no idea about it.

Good luck

 

[Hihoslvr18]

I know it doesn’t have cats. It’s the full system. They did let me know that I may have an issue getting it inspected but I’m not worried about it. I contacted the IA DMV but they can’t release any information about the previous owner without the previous owners consent. I’m not terrified of it I would just like to know more about it. The tuning especially just because I don’t know if it’s set up for e85 or not and I’m assuming that if it is it’s definitely not what the dealer is using. From all of the videos they’ve sent me it looks and sounds great. I’m just looking for a little more info. I know it’s a whippple but I don’t know what size or what pulley. It looks like the 4.75” but I’m unsure.

 

[Loosescrews]

Personally, it would be a no-go for me. I’ve been there done that and have been burnt. Just my two cents.

 

[srt_3]

Car started out in PA. Was a lease unit. At 10031 miles, in January 2020, it was sold at auction, and ended up in Ia. On 9/8/22 it was sold at auction again, probably to current Dealership .

 

[baabootoo]

I believe the old saying goes, 1 pass at the drag strip = 100 miles of wear on the car.............Have a link? I think MOST people will BABY these cars which is NOT good. "IF" it has oil, pressure, fuel, etc., 12 seconds of WOT will not hurt a thing.

 

[Xylander]

Lol, you guys kill me how everything used with mods is the damn devil.
Worth only $35k because it has $10k in mods done LOL LOL LOL ????..???. A 15K MILE 2018? Where do you guys come up with this stuff?
Ivwould be on my way with my truck and trailer right now if it was $35k

Highly modified????
The car has exhaust tips and what they call aftermarket exhaust. Could be a mid muffler delete only.......

Does it have cats?

A fender mount oil catch can, fore fuel system, and a whipple with what size pulley?

Highly modified??? It has bolt ons.
We can call this non stock.

Is it setup on E85?

I bet it is by the fuel system.
I would call the big email tuners with the VIN and see if anybody knows anything about the car. See what pulley is on there and it should show what boost level it is running at or what you see on the gauge if it runs 100%.

Can you pay for a DMV check in IL to get the prior owners name and number?

If you were to purchase it, I would have all the info, including what fuel pump is in there, and call a tuner immediately or do an online one with someone who is a brand name.

I am not terrified of this car. If it is an auction car with zero history then it is a challenge more than a concern. Have the dealer be straight up with you if it was a trade in or an auction piece and they have no idea about it.

Good luck

I call a Whipple supercharger and nearly every piece of the induction system (throttle body, TBC, TPS, intake, fuel system) a fairly huge set of upgrades.

 

[Xylander]

I know it doesn’t have cats. It’s the full system. They did let me know that I may have an issue getting it inspected but I’m not worried about it. I contacted the IA DMV but they can’t release any information about the previous owner without the previous owners consent. I’m not terrified of it I would just like to know more about it. The tuning especially just because I don’t know if it’s set up for e85 or not and I’m assuming that if it is it’s definitely not what the dealer is using. From all of the videos they’ve sent me it looks and sounds great. I’m just looking for a little more info. I know it’s a whippple but I don’t know what size or what pulley. It looks like the 4.75” but I’m unsure.

If the car doesn't have cats, the dealership can't legally sell it. It's actually a Federal $25,000 fine and potential loss of their dealership license if they sell a vehicle without catalytic converters. This is true in all 50 states.

 

[GreenMachine15]

If the car doesn't have cats, the dealership can't legally sell it. It's actually a Federal $25,000 fine and potential loss of their dealership license if they sell a vehicle without catalytic converters. This is true in all 50 states.

This is not true.
They must state it on the bill of sale.
At least in my state.

 

[GreenMachine15]

I call a Whipple supercharger and nearly every piece of the induction system (throttle body, TBC, TPS, intake, fuel system) a fairly huge set of upgrades.

That stuff that can be bolted on easily... that is why I consider them bolt ons. That SC can be swapped in an hour. My brothers fore fuel system took us 4 hours to put in not rushed, so no biggie to me. Maybe the stock blower had a bearing issue or he was smart enough to sell it and upgrade for a decent price.

 

[Xylander]

This is not true.
They must state it on the bill of sale.
At least in my state.

It is Federally illegal for any car dealer to sell a vehicle without catalytic converters. The fine is a $25,000 federal fine and potential loss of license. I don't know what the state laws are, but they don't matter as that's the Federal law. I have a dealer's license and I have to routinely take retraining on it. They hammer that fact hard.

 

[GreenMachine15]

That is wrong, at least in Pennsylvania, so that means it is not federal. And we have emissions tests here and they are strict about emission$ law$.
A dealer can sell a car as-is without an engine, without wheels, without seat belts, without cats.
But it must be documented on the bill of sale and on the buyers guide.

I had a younger customer buy a trade in dakota r/t before we sent it to auction, non advertised and bought as is with a WV inspection sticker on it, as is, no warranty, marked as unknown performance mods. His mom called me 3 months later wanting us to pay for cats so his truck would pass inspection. She took us to court and lost because it was sold as is, we did not put an inspection sticker on it, no warranty.
I have gone over this with the state police, it is legal as long as it is documented and marked for off road use until corrected.

 

[Xylander]

That is wrong, at least in Pennsylvania, so that means it is not federal. And we have emissions tests here and they are strict about emission$ law$.
A dealer can sell a car as-is without an engine, without wheels, without seat belts, without cats.
But it must be documented on the bill of sale and on the buyers guide.

I had a younger customer buy a trade in dakota r/t before we sent it to auction, non advertised and bought as is with a WV inspection sticker on it, as is, no warranty, marked as unknown performance mods. His mom called me 3 months later wanting us to pay for cats so his truck would pass inspection. She took us to court and lost because it was sold as is, we did not put an inspection sticker on it, no warranty.
I have gone over this with the state police, it is legal as long as it is documented and marked for off road use until corrected.

You're misunderstanding this concept I think. The STATE will allow the sale, but the Federal government can also fine and or sue the dealership for the same process. In Florida, for example, we are a no inspection state. Even when registering a new car in the state from out of state, the DMV doesn't inspect the vehicle. They ask questions and you have to swear or affirm to the truthfulness, but if you in fact don't have cats, you can still register the car and transfer title. Dealers can even get away with selling them.

HOWEVER.

All it takes is for one person to report the transaction to the EPA. If it's a big dealership, they almost always elect to investigate. They don't spend time tracking down individual citizens who sold a car in a private sale. But, if it's a multi-million dollar car dealership that's been caught trading illegally modified cars, you can almost certainly bet that they'll follow up on that report and use that dealership to make a high profile example. As the saying goes, if they've done it once, they've done it 20 times... and this holds true for a lot of car dealerships that try and skirt EPA tampering laws. They'll investigate that dealership and pull all their sales and maintenance records for a two-year period and fine them $25,000 for every car they sold that had a non-standard emissions system, and $25,000 for every car they worked on that had a non-standard emissions system (it's not only illegal to remove cats, but it is illegal to perform even routine work on a vehicle's emissions system that previously had illegal tampering performed on the vehicle).

So, while the state law may allow the transfer of a vehicle without catalytic converters, the Federal law trumps it and any dealership with any common sense just doesn't play around with running afoul of Federal EPA codes. If they elect to investigate, it's not 1-2 agents sitting around looking through paperwork. These investigations can involve 50 or more people rifling through every aspect of the business from its filing system, cloud storage, IT systems, financial records, and so on. It practically shuts the dealership down for weeks. If it's a small dealership, the investigation, even if they don't find anything actionable, is often enough to put them out of business due to how onerous it can get. Then, once that dealership is on their radar, they'll be routinely re-inspected periodically.

In the end, you have to be a really dumb license holder to try and sell cars with tampered systems, even in states like Florida that has practically no emissions laws. As I've said before on this topic, the Feds don't give two shits about how much harm they cause. I've seen it go down dozens of times. The Feds get involved and they freeze out all the state agencies... torch a fire on the business and walk away when they're done.

 

[GreenMachine15]

You're misunderstanding this concept I think. The STATE will allow the sale, but the Federal government can also fine and or sue the dealership for the same process. In Florida, for example, we are a no inspection state. Even when registering a new car in the state from out of state, the DMV doesn't inspect the vehicle. They ask questions and you have to swear or affirm to the truthfulness, but if you in fact don't have cats, you can still register the car and transfer title. Dealers can even get away with selling them.

HOWEVER.

All it takes is for one person to report the transaction to the EPA. If it's a big dealership, they almost always elect to investigate. They don't spend time tracking down individual citizens who sold a car in a private sale. But, if it's a multi-million dollar car dealership that's been caught trading illegally modified cars, you can almost certainly bet that they'll follow up on that report and use that dealership to make a high profile example. As the saying goes, if they've done it once, they've done it 20 times... and this holds true for a lot of car dealerships that try and skirt EPA tampering laws. They'll investigate that dealership and pull all their sales and maintenance records for a two-year period and fine them $25,000 for every car they sold that had a non-standard emissions system, and $25,000 for every car they worked on that had a non-standard emissions system (it's not only illegal to remove cats, but it is illegal to perform even routine work on a vehicle's emissions system that previously had illegal tampering performed on the vehicle).

So, while the state law may allow the transfer of a vehicle without catalytic converters, the Federal law trumps it and any dealership with any common sense just doesn't play around with running afoul of Federal EPA codes. If they elect to investigate, it's not 1-2 agents sitting around looking through paperwork. These investigations can involve 50 or more people rifling through every aspect of the business from its filing system, cloud storage, IT systems, financial records, and so on. It practically shuts the dealership down for weeks. If it's a small dealership, the investigation, even if they don't find anything actionable, is often enough to put them out of business due to how onerous it can get. Then, once that dealership is on their radar, they'll be routinely re-inspected periodically.

In the end, you have to be a really dumb license holder to try and sell cars with tampered systems, even in states like Florida that has practically no emissions laws. As I've said before on this topic, the Feds don't give two shits about how much harm they cause. I've seen it go down dozens of times. The Feds get involved and they freeze out all the state agencies... torch a fire on the business and walk away when they're done.

Honestly, I have never heard of any dealer dealing with this in PA. Our state inspection and emissions tests require a tail pipe test, or a obd2 port test with a visual check to be passed in order to have your annual inspection/emissions and receive the windshield sticker. I am sitting here with our fleet safety director for our transportation company, he is a retired PA state trooper that worked D.O.T.
He is in complete agreement with me, just needs to be documented on the bill of sale and the buyers guide or announced at an auction as "modified offroad exhaust". Dealer is not responsible for any systems on the car to be repaired or working in order to sell, only if they have a state inspection license and are stickering it. Just must be documented to the customer of a sale. If the car is driven under 5,000 miles a year, it is emissions exempt in PA and does not even get checked, but must still be documented at a sale. He told me it is only a federal issue if you are the one doing the modifying of the system or if you pass an illegal vehicle on a emissions certification as an inspector. Aka diesel brothers modifying the emissions on trucks they charged customers to build or trucks they sold.
I have been in business since 2005 and sold maybe a dozen vehicles that had emissions mods, mostly mustangs and vettes, and always documented to the customer and on the paperwork. I am audited every year by the state police and this is what they instruct us to do to be compliant.
The dumb thing would be to hide it from a customer during the sales process. If a vehicle had a current PA emissions sticker and we find the emissions modified, as a licensed inspection station, we are required to scrape the sticker by law.

 

[Xylander]

Honestly, I have never heard of any dealer dealing with this in PA. Our state inspection and emissions tests require a tail pipe test, or a obd2 port test with a visual check to be passed in order to have your annual inspection/emissions and receive the windshield sticker. I am sitting here with our fleet safety director for our transportation company, he is a retired PA state trooper that worked D.O.T.
He is in complete agreement with me, just needs to be documented on the bill of sale and the buyers guide or announced at an auction as "modified offroad exhaust". Dealer is not responsible for any systems on the car to be repaired or working in order to sell, only if they have a state inspection license and are stickering it. Just must be documented to the customer of a sale. If the car is driven under 5,000 miles a year, it is emissions exempt in PA and does not even get checked, but must still be documented at a sale. He told me it is only a federal issue if you are the one doing the modifying of the system or if you pass an illegal vehicle on a emissions certification as an inspector. Aka diesel brothers modifying the emissions on trucks they charged customers to build or trucks they sold.
I have been in business since 2005 and sold maybe a dozen vehicles that had emissions mods, mostly mustangs and vettes, and always documented to the customer and on the paperwork. I am audited every year by the state police and this is what they instruct us to do to be compliant.
The dumb thing would be to hide it from a customer during the sales process. If a vehicle had a current PA emissions sticker and we find the emissions modified, as a licensed inspection station, we are required to scrape the sticker by law.

All well and good, but the fact still remains that the Clean Air Act trumps that state code. And, in case you missed it, the 2022 "Inflation Reduction Act" housed a rather substantial weaponization of the EPA:

"Congress passed the inflation Reduction Act of 2022, which specifically defined carbon dioxide, hydrofluorocarbons, methane, nitrous oxide, perfluorocarbons, and sulfur hexafluoride as greenhouse gases to be regulated by the EPA, as well as giving the EPA the ability to regulate the inclusion of renewable sources. [35] "

The EPA is expected to release yet another amendment to the Clean Air Act (last updated in 2019) this year or next as a result. With that official declaration allowing them to specifically enforce all sources of "greenhouse gas" emissions, they have all they need to begin going after even the offroad vehicles. The current guidance sheet, updated in 2021, states that it is in fact illegal, but offroad vehicles lie in a legal grey zone that makes enforcement problematic. This law allows them to now close that loophole and, although it was talked about a lot over the last 2 years, it's actually going to happen this time around (that being the banning of the sale of aftermarket exhaust and emissions equipment and the inclusion of Federal criminal codes added for tampering... up until now those have been civil in nature).

Many folks think it's OK to buy/sell/modify cars against the EPA rules because they haven't been able to uniformly enforce the law. They've ramped up over the past couple of years, but even then, they haven't really put a dent in it. With the funding they got and the amendments to the law, they now have clear authority, the money, and soon, the manpower to start enforcing the Clean Air Act. I hope I'm wrong, but my guess is the next 2 years is going to be a bloodbath... with an awful lot of, "OMG they confiscated my car / closed down my dealership!"

 

[Turd McGavin]

It is Federally illegal for any car dealer to sell a vehicle without catalytic converters. The fine is a $25,000 federal fine and potential loss of license. I don't know what the state laws are, but they don't matter as that's the Federal law. I have a dealer's license and I have to routinely take retraining on it. They hammer that fact hard.

weed is federally illegal as well, yet states still sell it..fed law = shit law