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I am not against four doors. I am against not having the OPTION of having 2 doors. They don't have to make money. Honda and everyone else understands that beginner cars are loss leaders for MPG/CAFE and creating brand loyalty. Everyone else except Mopar, evidently.

The problem with not having reliable, cheap, sexy, fun, first cars is that the later cars that have the kinds of profit margins bean counters think about when alone in bed are largely a product having the money-losing or lower-profit loss-leader initial cars to get people in the door in the first place.

A reminder, I gave Bob Lutz the idea for a revived Dodge Challenger (actually a Plymouth 'Cuda, befcause Plymouth was still alive back then) back in the early '90's, replete with the idea of a new, small-block Hemi. I am batting 1000 on my ideas and understand the market better than my critics do. Anyone driving a Dodge Challenger (new version) is proof I was right. The millions of 2-door first, cheap, fun, cars being sold worldwide is proof that they are wrong.

And I am saying that Dodge is missing the boat by abdicating all 2-door sporty compact car sales to anyone and everyone else.

How many car models have YOU originated? How many units are THEY selling? Ask yourself these questions. I know this stuff. I have a 100 percent proven track record. I also encouraged him to produce the Viper GTS, but I think that was probably already planned by the time they just showed a concept. But, I was right about that one, too.

I know a hole in the market when I see one, and even with the Climate Cultists shrieking about how bad muscle cars are, while they write checks to NAMbLA to support it, or whatever else they do with their time, MY idea, the car I asked Mopar to produce, is absolutely steamrolling, no, it is Sturmpanzering the other automakers day after day after day.

I was right then. I am right now. Hire me, Dodge. Bobby never sent me the keys to a new Challenger when they got around to making them. This would be just.
I didn't mean to imply against 4 doors for everything, I meant in the performance sector of vehicles. Also not sure if you're aware but Dodge did make an SRT-4 ACR with the 16" BBS's and adjustable suspension.
 

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You are not going to attract the Porsche-tier people, image-wise, with a car that has an engine from a "muscle car" in it.
Maybe. My girlfriend bought a Redeye, traded here Macan S for a Trackhawk, and now got a TRX.
But she still likes her 911 Turbo S, and her Cayman even more. Oddly enough.

Although, in her case it's not the image (even though she refuses to let me debadge her cars), it's the power.
 
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The Op makes me long for my long gone 1977 Chevy Monday Mirage in white with its red and blue stripes and aero kit complete with flares, nose, and spoiler. Oh, and I almost forgot its little V8 that you basically had to remove to change spark plugs. If anyone knows where it is, let me know, it’s the one that had the cats cut out of it because it makes the car go faster......

That was a compact muscle car!!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #44
Maybe. My girlfriend bought a Redeye, traded here Macan S for a Trackhawk, and now got a TRX.
But she still likes her 911 Turbo S, and her Cayman even more. Oddly enough.

Although, in her case it's not the image (even though she refuses to let me debadge her cars), it's the power.
Does the Porsche Turbo S have a small-block Chevy engine?
 

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Discussion Starter #45
I didn't mean to imply against 4 doors for everything, I meant in the performance sector of vehicles. Also not sure if you're aware but Dodge did make an SRT-4 ACR with the 16" BBS's and adjustable suspension.
That is the point. Who was aware of it? How many of you knew of the 2-door Neon ACR (I had one.) The dealer sure didn't know about it. I got it for less than 3 grand.

Why build a flag that can whip all the other flags, then neglect to wave it?
 

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Discussion Starter #46
And yet Chevy did just fine with the ZR1. I didnt say it had to be a Hellcat, you could make a Venom edition of the motor.
The 'vette was always a normal OHV Chevy. The ZR1 did not sell anywhere near as well, as, for example, the Viper.

Saleen failed, IMHO, along with Gerald Wiegert's car, the W-2, because the very heart of the car was a mundane, OHV Chevy. Oh, and the Pantera and its 351C.

You won't sell Ferraris with a Yugo engine in them, regardless of its output. Did you know the Ferrari F1 team continued to use Ferrari engines in a season when their power was down relative to the other teams, instead of buying engines from Mercedes?

The engine is an important part of a car's iconography.

It was a big mistake when Ferrari quit making 60-65 degree V12's for a while, and had the V8 cars and the flat-12 Berlinetta Boxer. Since they have returned to V 12's their sales have improved markedly.

The Porsche 928 was not a terribly successful car, nor was the 924, nor the 968. People who want Porsches often associate Porsche with flat-6's, and the other offerings didn't have the same cachet.

It's the reason a Hemi is inextricably linked to the Challenger and Hellcat. Try selling a Hellkittenembryo with a turbocharged four-banger from Jeep, even if it has more power and by some miracle, more torque.

The engine is very central to a car's identity, and the wrong engine has eventually sunk quite a few cars. Having a thousand farting chipmunks on crystal methamphetamine as a power source may produce more power than a Ferrari engine, but you will not sell more Ferraris with farting chipmunks under the hood.

They need a better engine than the "we are too poor to tool up for a different cylinder bank angle" V10 that was born in the 90's. (That was the EXACT reason given for the 360-plus-two-random-cylinders Viper engine.) It needs to die a fast an violent death.

A DOHC 700-cube loafing, low-RPM engine (for fuel mileage/emissions) (that can be upgraded immediately thereafter to more normal engine RPM) that is 72 degrees can finally get the Viper up into the biggest of the big leagues.

What bean-counters who have never actually BEEN car guys do not understand is the whole mindset of true enthusiasts, and true enthusiasts are what carries the torch for that brand from generation to generation, such as myself.

People whose only loyalty is to themselves, their wallets, and their pubic regions can't understand loyalty to anything else, and it is not even taught or lauded as a virtue in today's increasingly-egocentric world, and the leaders emplaced in politics and, increasingly, everywhere else, are as out of touch with what people really want and need as they are with the concept of loyalty beyond immediate gratification.
 

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Does the Porsche Turbo S have a small-block Chevy engine?
No, but it does have 640 hp, which isn't bad in a relatively lightweight car.
 
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Discussion Starter #48
No, but it does have 640 hp, which isn't bad in a relatively lightweight car.
I contend that it would not matter if a SBC had 1000hp. It would cause them to sell fewer, not more, Porsches to their core, loyal, buyers.
 

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I contend that it would not matter if a SBC had 1000hp. It would cause them to sell fewer, not more, Porsches to their core, loyal, buyers.
Well, my point was really that my girlfriend traded one of hers for a Trackhawk, so her loyalty must be questionable.
At least when it comes to Porsches.
 
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That is the point. Who was aware of it? How many of you knew of the 2-door Neon ACR (I had one.) The dealer sure didn't know about it. I got it for less than 3 grand.

Why build a flag that can whip all the other flags, then neglect to wave it?
I knew of the 2 door ACR, but that body style didn't sell extremely well, everybody thought the Neon was junk. You had to be a Mopar guy to know about them, or not just assume they were junk. The SRT-4 changed that to an extent, and made the Neon a bit more common/popular. They dropped the 2 dr because my understanding of the situation was it didn't sell well enough to justify continuing production, so they built what sold.

I can't really speak to how wide spread the knowledge was of the SRT-4 ACR being a production car, because the people I encountered knew of it. At least in my area of the country when SRT-4's were new, most were sold before arriving at the dealership. There was some advertisement when the SRT-4 was new, not saying as much as other brands may have advertised their sport compacts. There were also magazine articles that covered the SRT-4. There is even a tv commercial that was made when the SRT-4 was new.
 

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The 'vette was always a normal OHV Chevy. The ZR1 did not sell anywhere near as well, as, for example, the Viper.
Except that you'd be completely wrong.

The 2019 ZR1 (C7 model) sold more models in JUST 2019 than the Viper has sold since 2014.
2019 ZR1 - 2,953 total models
2014-2020 Viper - 2,677 models

Now, if you're saying this comparing the ZR1 to the entire history of the Viper, then yes, I'll agree with that statement. The Viper sold roughly 32k total cars in it's 25 years of actual production while the ZR1 sold about 7k in it's 5 years of production.

And lastly, let's not get confused at all about how well the Viper sold. It had a couple of years (3 I believe) where it sold more than 2,000 models in a single year but generally speaking was a car that averaged around 1100 models a year...
 

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I knew of the 2 door ACR, but that body style didn't sell extremely well, everybody thought the Neon was junk. You had to be a Mopar guy to know about them, or not just assume they were junk. The SRT-4 changed that to an extent, and made the Neon a bit more common/popular. They dropped the 2 dr because my understanding of the situation was it didn't sell well enough to justify continuing production, so they built what sold.

I can't really speak to how wide spread the knowledge was of the SRT-4 ACR being a production car, because the people I encountered knew of it. At least in my area of the country when SRT-4's were new, most were sold before arriving at the dealership. There was some advertisement when the SRT-4 was new, not saying as much as other brands may have advertised their sport compacts. There were also magazine articles that covered the SRT-4. There is even a tv commercial that was made when the SRT-4 was new.
The Neon was junk, but it was GOOD junk. It was a great American fuel economy car that wasn't flashy but did the job most people wanted it for. The SRT-4 was crazy and awesome, but Dodge had terrible leadership at that point. They had that same turbo'd 4 cylinder in the PT Cruiser Turbo (slightly less powerful, not all the suspension goodies). Then they dump it into the god awful Caliber...

Most of the people I knew thought very highly of the SRT-4...super light weight, limited slip, and it was just powerful enough to take on all the V8 cars of that time period (winning about 1/2-3/4 of the time).
 

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With every post the OP shows how more out of touch he is.
Cars barely sell at all anymore, and certainly not 2 door cars. As mentioned above, manufacturers build what will sell, not what an out of touch loon longs for.
And your not so subtle shot at the GM LS motors is laughable. People LS swap anything and everything because they are a fantastic, cost-effective way to make great power. Sure, there are a handful of Hellcat swaps out there, but nobody is putting a 5.7 or 6.4 Hemi in anything.
Somebody help this guy get back on his meds.
 

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Didn’t Lutz (or, should we just call him Bobby?) leave well before the introduction of the Challenger? Pretty sure bringing the 2004 GTO from Australia was one of his ideas while at GM?
 

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The Neon was junk, but it was GOOD junk. It was a great American fuel economy car that wasn't flashy but did the job most people wanted it for. The SRT-4 was crazy and awesome, but Dodge had terrible leadership at that point. They had that same turbo'd 4 cylinder in the PT Cruiser Turbo (slightly less powerful, not all the suspension goodies). Then they dump it into the god awful Caliber...

Most of the people I knew thought very highly of the SRT-4...super light weight, limited slip, and it was just powerful enough to take on all the V8 cars of that time period (winning about 1/2-3/4 of the time).
Yeah, I'm not quite sure what they were thinking with the Caliber. They should have continued the Neon for a couple more years. The only v8 cars I can think of at the time that would beat SRT-4's were '03-'04 Cobra's, and LS1 F-bodies. The SRT-4 would even beat EVO's from a roll.
 

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Might be time to step away from the coffee this morning?

The Dart failed because it is a POS. I bought my daughter one to hopefully create some of that brand loyalty you talk about. All I’ll say is it’s a damn good thing I got a Max Care warranty at the same time. Plus, it rides like crap and the mileage isn’t anywhere near what other cars in its segment get.

I could go on, but the issues with the car have ZERO to do with the number of doors it has ...
Yep. I was suckered into purchasing the first year Dart, too. POS, underpowered. Sold it within a year. I agree with you completely. It wasn't the doors. I knew that when I bought it!
 

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Yep. I was suckered into purchasing the first year Dart, too. POS, underpowered. Sold it within a year. I agree with you completely. It wasn't the doors. I knew that when I bought it!
Hers is a 2014 GT with just 54,000 on it. With the Max Care, it only costs me $100 every few months to replace the wheel bearings, cracked air intakes, failed gas caps and various assundry sending units, sensors and whatever else it decides to randomly eat. Only a little more than a year left on that, though, and then it will likely get traded for something Japanese after the first significant out-of-pocket expense.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
Didn’t Lutz (or, should we just call him Bobby?) leave well before the introduction of the Challenger? Pretty sure bringing the 2004 GTO from Australia was one of his ideas while at GM?
Cars had far longer product design/test cycles then. So did engines.
 

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Discussion Starter #60 (Edited)
not worth repeating due to clarification below
I am correct in that I was referring to the DOHC ZR-1, not the C7. The ZR-1 I refer to was long before the utterly robot-raped-a-transformer-that-raped-a-vending-machine-that-gave-birth-to-a-child's-toy C7. I thought that was the thing to which you were referring. I didn't even know they vomited on the ZR-1 badge by putting it on another Corvette that was nowhere near as exotic nor interesting as the real ZR-1. The new ZR-1 is to the original as the new "Charger" is to the 1971, or the 2-door "Charger" or that dreadful thing from the mid-seventies called a "Charger."

The ZR-1, the car to which this engine belonged, is the one to which I was referring.

The ZR-1 (and for all future discussions, the one from the 1980's is the one to which I am referring, and will not be referring to the atrocity that came much later, so don't waste your time talking to me about it.)

The ZR-1 was the high water mark for engine design for Chevrolet, not just the Corvette. To make it more marketable to the North American market, they nixed the idea of having twin individual cam covers per cylinder bank and went with a single cylinder head cover instead.

It had dual intake runners per cylinder, feeding individual intake ports that each had their own intake valve,
571275
and they had butterflies on half the intake runners to allow higher-velocity airflow at lower RPM for a wider powerband, by opening up only one intake runner at lower RPM.

It was possibly the best engine ever put in an American car to that date, in fact, as far as airflow and rev potential, but being rather pricey, and in an era when cars couldn't be had with ten-year mortgages on them, It did not see widespread market share or modification. Note unequal-size intake ports on a per-cylinder basis.

If Chevrolet got their faces out of the massive pile of cocaine they seem to share with Dodge, they would bring back another DOHC engine and REALLY go to war with the European exotics, now that they have proper engine placement for true exotic-car handling. They may find their market share stretches upward while maintaining the bottom end, much like the powerband of a ZR-1 engine, if they include just such an engine in their product lineup.

OHV engines are not terribly popular with people in Europe, many of whom have actually gone past high school, and almost none of whom grew up with "Granddad's old Chevy V8." By aggressively ignoring this fact, Chevrolet will sacrifice sales unnecessarily that they could be attaining. Remember, Europe is the land of F1, which is to American racing what microprocessors are to cave men counting on their fingers, and people DO like the approval and dislike the opprobrium of their fellows, on an unconscious or conscious level, and having your German friends schadenfreude-snickering at your choice of 1940's-era engine technology in a mid-engine car is not something people want to pay 80k for.

Autobahn performance is more of a yardstick in Europe, especially Deutschland, than the ability to pull out tree stumps in first gear, so it would be all the more reason for Chevrolet to get their face off of the big mirror and look at the reality of the European market.

But, they won't, if their past performance is any indicator, just as they are ignoring the elephant in the (show)room (or elephant motor) that is raping them on the sales floor, while they refuse to bring out a 2022 Chevelle Malibu SS with 7.0L natty engine or a 6.whatever motor with a nice Magnuson or Whipple on it.

I guaran-dang-tee you if they brought out a barely-modified 1969 Chevelle Malibu, replete with chrome and one of the best front ends ever put on a car (the one from the 1969 Beaumont, with four headlights glowering at you from under a creased eyebrow) they would sell out before the general public got to know of their existence. Like American politicians, do you really think they are working at pleasing the people when they completely ignore the tidal wave of positive benefits reaped by Dodge with the "Cry all you want, Kool-Aid slurping acolytes of the dark goddess Greta, next we're gonna build a supercharged ___ " attitude?

It must be frustrating working at a major automaker and watching all the suits try to out-sissy each other in the hideous and unsellable cars they keep pushing for so they can bring the sacrifice of dead consumer interest to place in the lap of the malevolent frowning goddess Greta the (fun) Destroyer.

PS every time the American auto industry has trounced the world, there has been an attack from some vector to suppress it. Insurance industry, oil prices, now climate freaks. Anyone notice how none of this shrilling about climate ever gets done in China?
 
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