[motorheadmike]

This new controller will close that gap!

What is the expected functionality gain for a manual transmission car on a drag radial or slick?

I imagine this would be similar to what was done in the Viper application.

 

[motorheadmike]

No railing on anything. People asked for an opinion and not many have been drawn. Added what I could to the conversation. You don’t like it, that’s fine

The canned tune talk wasn’t me being a Dick. Your on the Diablo train and that’s great man. I’m happy for you. As an engineer by trade I was trying to explain putting data out on these types of products is hard to do. Sounds like the data is coming and I look forward to it

I have seen your road racing prowess over the years on this forum. Good stuff. Just because I don’t post about other things I’m doing doesn’t mean I don’t know what I’m doing. Have a good day

Next you are going to try to convince people a $400+ air tube doesn't add 30+ RWHP. And have the audacity to ask for empirical evidence regarding air flow/air mass increasing.

Oh wait... that's me.

The financial and emotional commitment, and associated bias, boils to the surface pretty quick around here regarding parts, vendors and tuners.

Personally, I see this product (in theory) to be a step up. In practice, that is to be determined because it is so new. However, first past the post reviews have a bad habit of becoming accepted fact in all car communities... and adjusting this after the fact is a rough road. Everyone has an agenda.

 

[motorheadmike]

isn't the track mode more set up for drag on the diablo and track mode is more for handling on the dsc?

There are some pretty strongly held misconceptions about how vehicle dynamics work.

Managing longitudinal and lateral forces are principally the same for all motorsports. Drag racing primarily looks at longitudinal. And anything with corners lateral, and lateral to longitudinal transitions. If you rapidly transition from longitudinal to lateral in drag racing you have a serious problem.

Which is where a system like this can save your bacon in milliseconds and help control the scenario. Something you don't get with a "drag only" or "track only" suspension. It is an incredibly versatile system that adapts, not binary as some folks are assuming. DSC has just taken it a step further. The modes provide a bit more adjustment to the environment.

Of course there is always room for optimization - but for 99% of people this controller is a set it and forget it solution.

 

[motorheadmike]

ah yes been looking into dsc so I know theirs is adaptive and the diablo is obviously just a rebranded doc but im curious about the differences in their set up. Diablo is promoting it as a great solution for the drag strip while DSC you see more on the canyon carving cars corvette, Porsche 911's, vipers etc.. So my question is which one will give optimal performance in canyon carving as my custom set up is exclusively track mode for daily driving except for traction which is in sport. From what I gather I feel like the DSC is a bit more oriented in my driving style rather than the Diablo setup.

You aren't listening. That is the source of the preconceptions: the vendors. A member already stated there was a minor difference in the factory settings from each retailer, and nothing significant enough to make a notable difference. Get the DSC and tune it yourself if DiabloSport isn't offering the software package. This allows you to make it your own.

 

[motorheadmike]

there was a lot of different answers in this long thread mixed in with some drama but thats all the info I needed straight and simple.

DSC will probably have better customer support than DiabloSport.

Marketing, vendor bias, and hearsay are huge problems in this community. Guaranteed the first set of reviews will become gospel on this product.

 

[motorheadmike]

DSC doesn't have the reach Diablo does. Not a knock, they are just a smaller operation producing fantastic controllers. This item has existed for years, but most of the people in this community had no clue. Diablo saw it as a product that would resonate with their huge Dodge car customer base, and got it out in front of the world. Win-win for all involved.

That is a pretty unbalanced take on it.

DiabloSport has a reputation of selling canned products that are marketed to offer results. Which is fine for most, not all customers. DSC, as you have indicated, are not driven by popularity or have the marketing or "tech-line" capacity of DiabloSport. So those few who knew about DSC found them on the niche/boutique competitive side of the industry.

Same product, different label, different support.

Masses consume mass quantities for certain, so while DiabloSport may have a larger market share of the product distribution and sales they will not have the same technical expertise as the developers. And will have to seek answers and solutions from them.

If I was looking for a competitive advantage I would call the developers, not the marketers, of a product for advice. That may be worth the pricepoint of entry ($300 retail) between DiabloSport and DSC. For a select few it may matter that the added expense should come with factory-direct support. Again, that is the 1% outliers of users who will seek to optimize it.

For reference: When I got into tuning, I pulled a copy of the tune from my DiabloSport handheld in my LS1 Camaro, with HP Tuners and compared it to stock. It was not a cutting edge level of tuning, to put it politely. It was rookie-level. No doubt the company has grown in 15 odd years.

However, they are just reselling someone else's product under another label in this instance.

 

[motorheadmike]

Who's bashing?

I don't believe what I said to be factually incorrect. If you, or anyone else, cares to refute my position - objectively - I welcome it.

I simply highlighted what I understood to be the differences between the two companies, and what I would expect for the services rendered with respect to the cost difference for the same product. Most DiabloSport customers of this product will never even know that it is a rebranded product (which may be more flexible than they can imagine), or care for that matter. For those who do, and do care, it may be the difference maker to shop factory direct.

I am happy you are happy. Most people will be.

However, this is where confirmation and vendor bias start to take over. I bought from Company X, so Company X is best company... And emotions start running hot because people threw their money into the mix.

 

[motorheadmike]

Put a call into Summit today to see if they would start carrying them (Jegs has it). They are my preferred parts distributor. Hope to hear back soon.

 

[motorheadmike]

Tee hee.

Summit was awesome to deal with on this.

 

[motorheadmike]

I can't find anything similar to that part # on Summit's web site. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

It's probably not loaded in the system yet. I had it done through a special order. Jegs has it listed, Summit just wasn't tracking the availability. Just call them.

International sales with Summit makes doing business a joy (especially returns). The price at checkout is the price at the door, no surprises or UPS nonsense.

 

[motorheadmike]

Nobody except a couple of Forum posts has told me anything yet, FYI. At this point I am committed to evaluating it as DS supplies it and giving extensive feedback including comparative lap times. I will have comparative lap times on May 3 from my home track, nothing will be better, because I have previously run over 100 laps there in Hellcats. After that evaluation it will be fair that I understand if there are ways to modify it or if there are indeed different “canned tunes” for us. I promise to give fair, and unbiased facts and opinions for everyone.

For the street and daily driving, as I understand the program, if the controller does not sense any G-Force readings from the sensors or no extraordinary inputs from the driver, it rides remarkable smooth. That is consistent with my first impression. Actually when changing from Street-Sport-Track on the fly and with a steady hand and feet, there was hardly any difference in the ride. When cornering, it seems to me it gives us increasing stiffness (more anti-sway) left and right as it reads increasing G-Forces from the driver input. As I understand that part, the different modes have increased stiffness/rebound etc. both in their ultimate settings and are programmed different within each mode.

For me, to begin to evaluate different programs will take a lot more experience with it. I am initially interested in the out of the box improvement, then we shall go from there. It will be fun to discuss that with them and everyone else here who is interested.

Ditto. Too much subjective interpretation and anecdotal evidence is going to taint this product with worthless opinions and misinformation before enough of it is out in the real world. We see this speculation happen time and again from product to product in this community. Hype, nonsense, and people buying in without doing their due diligence.

There may very well be different "tunes" or "calibration" thresholds between DSC and DS out of the box. But, these are changes anyone can make should they see fit to do so.

I have the software and DSC settings sitting in a folder on my desktop. Once the hardware gets here I can make an objective review of what the differences between them are, and what suits my needs the best.

Regardless, this is very unlikely to be a "snake oil" product as DSC has a long standing reputation across multiple platforms for delivering performance improvements. I did my research and laid down my money to be a part of that.

That said: How do we activate "Launch Control" with this bad boy?

 

[motorheadmike]

Mike look at the settings you downloaded. As I see their presentation, he says if the brake is held firm, and with the throttle at 25% (that is a setting) or more, it automatically will be in launch mode. The 25% and the duration of the action can be set. I look forward to some of the drag racers and DS themselves to give some more info on this stuff.

I will play with that part of it a bit in the next couple of weeks. I am going to try something simple myself; get a better 0-60.

Rog, thanks. Just want to make sure it is the same across all Dodge platforms.

 

[motorheadmike]

Just got mine today and from a hardware perspective, this is very disappointing.

The plastic case looks terrible (fit and finish).
Hardware inside had a bridge wire to fix a mistake
Main (only) controller inside is a cheapo 16-bit DSPIC.
Definitely not even $50 in BOM.
Also for the price, could have tossed in a mini USB cable for it.

Hopefully the difference it makes to the feel of the car will make up for it. Will install it later tonight to test it out.

For those of you interested in the insides:
View attachment 571412
View attachment 571413
View attachment 571414

Most of our home electronics have a low cost of BOMs. We are paying for the R&D and future development costs, salaries, marketing, overhead costs, and profit margins in that $950 difference.

Beyond the lack of mechanical retention holding the jumper in place I don't see the problem here?

 

[motorheadmike]

Yep, I'd tack that "white wire" to the PCB with about 4 spot bonds to prevent a future failure due to vibration / flexing of the wire across that span since it's located behind the driver side rear wheel. At least a suspect condition if someone's DS / DSC suspension controller goes down in the future. I wonder what the fail safe state of the suspension controller is (last setting, OE street, limp home mode, . . .)?

Still waiting on a shipping notice or an email notification that it's been delayed for mine. Ordered from DS on 3/25. Maybe they are fixing the number of allowable read / write cycles? I'd be happy with the delay if it's for that reason.

I ordered in mid-March and likely won't see it at my door until June according to Summit. Shortly after placing the order they said it was on national backorder and I would be waiting until April 2022. That is a non-starter to have that kind of coin tied up in a part for a year. I am glad it changed.

 

[motorheadmike]

I ordered mine from HHP and it shipped the next day basically.

No doubt the usual vendors bought stock and have some on hand. However, as I mentioned pages back, I had to get (chase) Summit on the case of adding it to their catalogue. So obviously their purchasing department weren't there yet. Mine is a tale of caution. Summit still has the best international customer service options for folks like me.

Also, I should clarify I should see the part in early-May, not June. Me not so math good.

 

[motorheadmike]

I've been talking with Jeremy at DSC through the week and just waiting to hear back/decision from Mike. It sounded like they were loading up cars in preparation for an upcoming race and Jeremy also mentioned they had about 100 backordered DSC controllers that finally arrived in. Hopefully have an answer by Monday.

I imagine mine is one of those backordered units. Great news that there has been some progress on that front.

 

[motorheadmike]

Rayzazoo,

Thanks for the post and for digging into the numbers.

This sounds like we're getting somewhere - listing distinctions in OEM settings for starters.

Do the DSC/DiabloSport controllers similarly ramp up base starting firmness for the three selectable modes? Is that all it does, or is there additional tuning for anticipated standing start launches and braking forces?

One consistent observation is that when braking the controller senses weight transfer towards the front and firms up the front shocks. That has to be a matter of enabling the controller to sense longitudinal G forces and if it can do that then programming it to do the opposite - allow more rear shock compression and perhaps more front shock extension too - during hard launches or rolling launches - would be a great way to get more wheel downforce on the rear wheels to help avoid spinning the tires.

For initially turning, is there a customized for the Challenger's weight, springs and shocks (predicted body roll), change in individual wheel shock firmness?

It sounds like, since you used Track as your straight ahead example, that the DSC controller in Track mode would be in firmest base ride 100mA in all four corners (like OEM), then sense a bump in one wheel so quickly it could go into OEM Street mode's 400mA softer ride response to absorb the bump and keep the wheel in ground contact, then quickly go back into 100mA in all four corners past the bump. Is this correct? If so, this is a big improvement over OEM Track mode.

But, if the above IS true for Track, and perhaps Sport mode as well with its base 200mA setting, why would anyone ever want to drive in anything other than Track suspension mode? You are essentially saying the controller can sense bumps so well that it will automatically briefly shift into softer ride modes for those wheels affected by road imperfections? If that is true wouldn't the ride over suddenly bumpy roads simply feel like Street?

It also sounds like, again using Track for your turning example, that the DSC/DiabloSport controller in Track mode would be in firmest base ride 100mA in all four corners, then as the turn is entered sense a difference in G forces between the inner and outer wheels (primarily more downforce on the outer wheels, less downforce on the inner wheels as the body weight rolls towards the outside of the turn) and go into Street mode settings of 400mA for the inner wheels, then go back into 100mA in all four corners as the car straightens out. Is this correct? If so, is the controller's switching to the softer inner wheel shock setting allowing greater inner wheel shock extension, and perhaps doing it quicker, than the 100mA Track setting would allow for? If so, it would keep more inner wheel downforce (and tire rubber downforce) on the ground. More inner wheel friction on the ground in a turn would improve handling (and safety) - maybe by a lot.

What happens if you start out in Street going straight and hit a bump or depression in the road? Does the controller go even softer than 400mA? If not, what would be the benefit of ever being in other than Track? If indeed Track handles sudden bumps like the two lesser firmness modes? There would seem to be no advantage, or reason, to not being in Track.

What happens if you start out in Street and start a turn? Does the controller change the outer wheels to Track settings - to 100mA - while keeping Street's 400mA on the inner wheels? If so that would be pretty great - better handling avoiding Uncle Jed's refrigerator or just carving turns always equals better safety - and it is more fun. But again, why ever select Street or Sport suspension mode if all the above is actually true? Or even mostly true?

I hope it is true. Replacing the three OEM selectable suspension modes into one super can-handle-all-ride-conditions individual wheel sensing and shock response Track mode sounds fantastic to me. Base handling in turns like Track, straight ahead ride like Street, sensing longitudinal weight shifts for better friction starts and less front end droop stops. Sign me up.

If you, or anyone else on the forum, can answer these questions we'll really be getting somewhere in understanding how this works.

Best,

Finface

This video explains it all: Diablosport suspension controller

You will need to datalog the individual sensors to gauge where/when you want to make changes.

DSC likely dyno'd the shocks, made a preliminary baseline tune, and fine tuned the controller in a car. Tuning a car to individual driving styles is very subjective. This is a 90% solution for 99% of buyers out of the box.

At best folks can sharpen up the response times sooner or delay them for more weight transfer relative to the G's seen. Assuming they have the tools and knowledge to know how. But, most people who venture into tuning this will probably end up ruining things or seeing little return or end up claiming a false positive/placebo effect.

You are over thinking this and over complicating it and muddying the waters. This box takes a linear system and makes it parabolic.

 

[motorheadmike]

MotorHead Mike and Rayzazoo,

First off, I'm 99% sure I'm going to buy one of these controllers. But I haven't decided who from.

I should have watched the video in this post earlier - it's good, but again nothing I've seen offers the kind of Overview of the product I want with regard to our Challengers. I want Tom or someone from DSC to make a video or two where he unboxes the controller, installs it in the trunk, starts the car, then says, "I'm going to work so I'm selecting Street - and here is what it does in Street and why it's better than OEM Street. Then he drives on rough roads and comments about what the active suspension is doing the OEM suspension would not, does some hard stops, and quasi-hard launches, and makes some sharp turns. If you can do the "throw the car around" stuff on a road course that would be great. And he does the same for Sport and Track - IF there is a different response the controller will make dependent on those modes. I don't want to be overly critical of DSC or DiabloSport because I think you guys are engineering geniuses, but I find that some aftermarket vendors assume their potential clients are far more "in tune" (lol) with them than they are - and I think this is the case here.

Some things you (Mike from DSC) said in the video stand out and spoke to my questions.

Mike said “blending the two modes on the Viper - Touring and Sport”. Isn't this the gist of my question about a "Super Track" mode that senses and reacts so quickly (500 times/second accessing the OEM hardware is impressive!) it behaves like Street mode temporarily? It sounded like it - tuning to obtain the best blend of both worlds. For those of us who may want a true plug and play experience is there simply "The Map" that DSC or Diablo has optimized for Challengers - for the 90% who may not want to delve into the software? Or are there multiple preoptimized Maps? If there is one Map is it selectable on the UConnect screen, or always operable (like an overlay) to some degree in all three Challenger selectable suspension modes?

I poked around YouTube and caught a couple more DSC videos. There was a Porsche guy a year ago in Seattle who seemed to answer the above "best of both worlds, Super Track mode" question differently than it is blended and good to go. He compared his normal mode to his sport mode and said there was a perceivable difference. He said his normal mode was a softer ride with the controller installed, and said his sport mode was stiffer than normal like always, but it still smoothed out the road.

Mike, in talking about launch mode - you used “drag race mode” terminology. This also gets to the core of what I'm asking about in my previous posts and here. On our Dodge Challenger Hellcats we don't have a Drag Race selectable suspension mode like the Demon has on its UConnect. Street, Sport and Track is what we have - and I understand now have the three passive firmness settings. In your video showing longitudinal tuning when you set drag strip launch parameters...when would they "activate"? In one, some, or all our modes? I mentioned separating the controller's maps (if there is more than one) to marry up with our non-Demon, non-Super Sport Challenger selectable UConnect terminology because I think that would a better way to think about all of this.

In the video at the vendor show Tom explained a lot. He mentioned a Gforce signature prewritten by DSC, talked about brake pressure sensing faster than Gforce sensing, offsetting one kind of sensing against another when conflicting inputs are sensed, said active all the time, warned people can go down wrong path manually and to avoid it DSC provides "a very good base map". So I'm getting there, but you can really help if you answer my questions in this post. I liked the concept of "tune for the driver - driver reactions - "which trigger a mixed set of commands in the prewritten algorithm". I liked can tune for track and different car setups. I liked 99% of the time you see an improvement in lap times just swapping OEM for DSC controllers. A real beauty of a selling point is your controller takes a less than optimally set up car and makes them a lot better. And the concept of it automatically adjusting for rain, and getting offline on a road course.

Electronic bump stop! Can tune the shock to stop compressing to avoid rubbing with bigger diameter tires? Can you do this without changing the other functionality features of the controller?

Ever get that impression that someone will never be satisfied?

 

[motorheadmike]

Is this going to kill me?

 

[motorheadmike]

Only if you're in California!

And you're OK anywhere if it is a DSC Sport controller!

View attachment 572918

That alone is worth the price difference.