[99GTS]

I’ve read and heard from multiple sources that Dodge says that a tune needs recalibration for the M6 cars for 2021 to meet emissions.

Im wondering if anyone can help me understand how this is just an issue on M6 cars and not any of the auto HC, RE or SS cars? My simple understanding is the engine creates emissions and not the transmission. Does it hold any water that the exact same car’s emissions, with the same engine, would differ between an A8 or M6? If so I’d love to understand why. Even if this isn’t the full truth of why I’d just like to know how it is possible.

I do know Ford lowered the HP rating of the Mustang GT recently but I believe that was across the board with autos or manuals being irrelevant. I think this was due to emissions.

So I don’t disbelieve that there’s a potential emissions compliance issue. I just can’t wrap my head around the manual transmission making a difference.

I do know one theory is this is just an excuse for dodge to quietly kill the M6 due to warranty claims (clutch especially from what I read) so please don’t bother throwing that out as a response. This does seem more plausible to me.

My second question would be; if this theory of them trying to kill the M6 quietly is true, and the excuse of emissions tuning on manuals is false (or not possibly true) why wouldn’t they just discontinue the M6? Or use a better excuse, if they really are bent on canceling sneakily, like “chip shortage issue”?

 

[Himmelkat]

They don't want to lose all that revenue of owners buying their cars. If the final chop was announced, many would just go to other platforms from other makers.

 

[audocat]

I’ve read and heard from multiple sources that Dodge says that a tune needs recalibration for the M6 cars for 2021 to meet emissions.

Im wondering if anyone can help me understand how this is just an issue on M6 cars and not any of the auto HC, RE or SS cars? My simple understanding is the engine creates emissions and not the transmission. Does it hold any water that the exact same car’s emissions, with the same engine, would differ between an A8 or M6? If so I’d love to understand why. Even if this isn’t the full truth of why I’d just like to know how it is possible.

I do know Ford lowered the HP rating of the Mustang GT recently but I believe that was across the board with autos or manuals being irrelevant. I think this was due to emissions.

So I don’t disbelieve that there’s a potential emissions compliance issue. I just can’t wrap my head around the manual transmission making a difference.

I do know one theory is this is just an excuse for dodge to quietly kill the M6 due to warranty claims (clutch especially from what I read) so please don’t bother throwing that out as a response. This does seem more plausible to me.

My second question would be; if this theory of them trying to kill the M6 quietly is true, and the excuse of emissions tuning on manuals is false (or not possibly true) why wouldn’t they just discontinue the M6? Or use a better excuse, if they really are bent on canceling sneakily, like “chip shortage issue”?

Can't answer your question but I don't believe there is a warranty on the clutch? There may be a one year at the most . It's considered a wear item, so probably not the reason. My clutch is original with 30k miles. No drag racing but lots of spirited driving.

 

[FutureHellcatOwner]

They don't want to lose all that revenue of owners buying their cars. If the final chop was announced, many would just go to other platforms from other makers.

That doesn't make any sense. If customers aren't buying them, because they aren't being produced, then there's no revenue to lose. People that want a manual, 1. Aren't buying any from Dodge currently; 2. Have either already moved to another manufacturer or are still waiting for Dodge to produce them. Either way, no revenue is being generated or lost since the manual transmission is currently unavailable.

 

[jmos4]

Hi,

The reason may be emissions as that has been the argument for going to automatic transmissions as they can program all the inputs vs a manual transmission the driver can greatly effect the milage on how they drive the car. Not sure if there was that much of a change in standards from last year models.

Other reason might just be supply as are the parts made domestically or imported and sitting outside CA waiting to be unloaded?

Hopefully they will keep the M6 on the option sheet.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Slidd]

Hi,

The reason may be emissions as that has been the argument for going to automatic transmissions as they can program all the inputs vs a manual transmission the driver can greatly effect the milage on how they drive the car. Not sure if there was that much of a change in standards from last year models.

Other reason might just be supply as are the parts made domestically or imported and sitting outside CA waiting to be unloaded?

Hopefully they will keep the M6 on the option sheet.

Regards,
Jim

Agree with this.

Obviously, mileage and emissions greatly affected by how one drives the car, some drivers can probably equal the automatic transmission while others burn way more fuel with increased emissions.

The on and off the throttle every time you shift also increases emissions and I saw this mentioned in an old article when the CAGS (skip-shift) first came out on the 1989 Corvette, their reasoning being the fewer shifts the lower the emissions and that might figure into why they all manuals seem to have it now. And surely the added fuel savings doesn't hurt.

So while there may be something to it, possibly Dodge just feels they've got bigger fish to fry and can make more $$$ moving forward with other packages rather than keep messing with an option that's sad to say, on its way out anyway.




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[drive_55_not]

possibly Dodge just feels they've got bigger fish to fry and can make more $$$ moving forward with other packages rather than keep messing with an option that's sad to say, on its way out anyway.

I think that's it. Seriously, how many M6's are people actually buying? Less than 100 would be my guess. So Dodge isn't going to lose that much money from 'loosing a customer' and would likely lose more money from having to buy a bunch of TREMEC's and associated inventory to sit around and collect dust.

./

 

[99GTS]

That doesn't make any sense. If customers aren't buying them, because they aren't being produced, then there's no revenue to lose. People that want a manual, 1. Aren't buying any from Dodge currently; 2. Have either already moved to another manufacturer or are still waiting for Dodge to produce them. Either way, no revenue is being generated or lost since the manual transmission is currently unavailable.

Exactly,

Im only buying a M6 HCWB. If that doesn’t exist anymore I’m buying a used M6 HCWB.

 

[99GTS]

Hi,

The reason may be emissions as that has been the argument for going to automatic transmissions as they can program all the inputs vs a manual transmission the driver can greatly effect the milage on how they drive the car. Not sure if there was that much of a change in standards from last year models.

Other reason might just be supply as are the parts made domestically or imported and sitting outside CA waiting to be unloaded?

Hopefully they will keep the M6 on the option sheet.

Regards,
Jim

That’s an interesting theory on the transmission but couldn’t the same be true if one drove the auto in manual mode at all times?

 

[99GTS]

I think that's it. Seriously, how many M6's are people actually buying? Less than 100 would be my guess. So Dodge isn't going to lose that much money from 'loosing a customer' and would likely lose more money from having to buy a bunch of TREMEC's and associated inventory to sit around and collect dust.

./

I’d agree that is the most likely answer. But again why not just announce the manuals are done? Why go to the trouble of making BS excuses?

It also this wouldn’t explain why they are keeping M6 Scat Packs available (I believe they are) unless the M6 take rate is substantially higher on the 6.4 cars.

If the manuals were announced as over the people holding out for the M6 could move on to buy either a new auto HC, a used M6 HC (me), a different brand, or buy nothing at all.

I don’t think they are stopping any lost sales by having people wait and buy nothing in the meantime.

 

[Booky]

Manual enthusiasts should have seen the writing on the wall when Ford released the new GT500 with NO manual transmission option.

And now that the automotive industry is transitioning into EV's, manual transmissions are inconsequential.


.

 

[Frosty]

Manual cars emit more emissions than the auto's as the autos are more efficient (in eco mode) in highway cruise thus why the MPG ratings are different (you can see that at on the window stickers or FuelEconomy.gov - The official U.S. government source for fuel economy information.). Being that the HC's already just barely meet standards (with credits) it doesn't surprise me that the M6 could be pushing the envelope. IMHO, I think most M6 buyers would be fine with reducing power output a little bit to get it to market as most M6 owners don't care about being the fastest anyways.

Production volumes of M6 being less than 100... Look at production numbers. M6 production was 21% of all hellcats in 2019. Can't find 2020 but that will be less not due to demand but due to lack of ability to order them. I tried to order one mid 2020 and couldn't for instance. Either way, more than 200 were built in 2019 with a total global production run of only 1300 cars. Don't mix up HC vs RE when looking at those numbers.

Prior to contrary belief their is a market for M6 cars. The longer Dodge waits to get them back to market the smaller that share is as people are going used as they got tired of waiting (myself included) but even though, a large chunk of those people would also upgrade if new became available so they could get exactly what they wanted. I'd be surprised that if they opened up order banks for M6 again in 2022 that it wouldn't be at least 20% of HC orders and most likely.

 

[99GTS]

Manual enthusiasts should have seen the writing on the wall when Ford released the new GT500 with NO manual transmission option.

And now that the automotive industry is transitioning into EV's, manual transmissions are inconsequential.


.

Oh we’ve certainly seen the writing on the wall for a very long time. The new GT500 or vette not having the option was not surprising at all. What I don’t think any of us saw coming was Dodge dropping it in the middle of a production cycle before this generation of car ended. I can’t think of any other car that dropped the manual option before moving to a next gen platform.

 

[Rockster]

I’ve read and heard from multiple sources that Dodge says that a tune needs recalibration for the M6 cars for 2021 to meet emissions.

Im wondering if anyone can help me understand how this is just an issue on M6 cars and not any of the auto HC, RE or SS cars? My simple understanding is the engine creates emissions and not the transmission. Does it hold any water that the exact same car’s emissions, with the same engine, would differ between an A8 or M6? If so I’d love to understand why. Even if this isn’t the full truth of why I’d just like to know how it is possible.

I do know Ford lowered the HP rating of the Mustang GT recently but I believe that was across the board with autos or manuals being irrelevant. I think this was due to emissions.

So I don’t disbelieve that there’s a potential emissions compliance issue. I just can’t wrap my head around the manual transmission making a difference.

I do know one theory is this is just an excuse for dodge to quietly kill the M6 due to warranty claims (clutch especially from what I read) so please don’t bother throwing that out as a response. This does seem more plausible to me.

My second question would be; if this theory of them trying to kill the M6 quietly is true, and the excuse of emissions tuning on manuals is false (or not possibly true) why wouldn’t they just discontinue the M6? Or use a better excuse, if they really are bent on canceling sneakily, like “chip shortage issue”?

With an automatic the emissions tester just depresses the gas pedal and the transmission handles the take off and up shifts (and down shifts) automatically (no pun...). If one drives a Scat Pack or Hellcat equipped with an automatic he should soon realize the shift map under light throttle is really aimed at improved gas mileage/emissions numbers. And no harm in that.

With a manual the take off is of course controlled by the tester's use of the clutch and throttle. And once underway the up shifts and down shifts likewise. Lots of room for the tester to even inadvertently affect the outcome.

Have no experience with a Hellcat fitted with a manual transmission but my 2020 Scat Pack with a manual is easy peasy to get moving with no drama, practically no throttle and very little slippage of the clutch. One of the easiest cars to get moving from a dead stop I have ever driven.

But I have not driven a Hellcat/RE with a manual. While I would expect the experience to be quite similar to that of my Scat Pack maybe not.

That the tester is involved more with the car fitted with a manual transmission and as such could affect its results the factory might have some "tune" that would be intended to diminish the penalty a tester might impose upon the car's results. Or make the take off more efficient for better results. The skip shift feature might require tweaking to gain some improvement from this.

Bottom line is the factory's claim a tune re calibration is needed is plausible. The better the MPG and emissions numbers are the better for Dodge, and of course better for all of us.

Not quite sure I accept this claim of a re calibration is needed is just to in some way soften the blow the car can't be had with a manual. No manual is no manual. Doesn't seem to me that the reason matters. If one must have a manual then he will have seek out another brand of car with a manual.

That is I find it hard to believe a potential buyer would somehow change his mind and accept an automatic because well, the factory has to re calibrate the tune and that makes not having a manual and me having to accept an automatic somehow better and better enough for me to buy the car with an automatic even though I really wanted a manual.

 

[99GTS]

Manual cars emit more emissions than the auto's as the autos are more efficient (in eco mode) in highway cruise thus why the MPG ratings are different (you can see that at on the window stickers or FuelEconomy.gov - The official U.S. government source for fuel economy information.). Being that the HC's already just barely meet standards (with credits) it doesn't surprise me that the M6 could be pushing the envelope. IMHO, I think most M6 buyers would be fine with reducing power output a little bit to get it to market as most M6 owners don't care about being the fastest anyways.

Production volumes of M6 being less than 100... Look at production numbers. M6 production was 21% of all hellcats in 2019. Can't find 2020 but that will be less not due to demand but due to lack of ability to order them. I tried to order one mid 2020 and couldn't for instance. Either way, more than 200 were built in 2019 with a total global production run of only 1300 cars. Don't mix up HC vs RE when looking at those numbers.

Prior to contrary belief their is a market for M6 cars. The longer Dodge waits to get them back to market the smaller that share is as people are going used as they got tired of waiting (myself included) but even though, a large chunk of those people would also upgrade if new became available so they could get exactly what they wanted. I'd be surprised that if they opened up order banks for M6 again in 2022 that it wouldn't be at least 20% of HC orders and most likely.

If I buy used next year and they did a limited run in 2023/24 I’d upgrade.

I don’t care about being fastest, because there is no competing with all of the crazy fast auto cars out today, but honestly I’d have a hard time swallowing a drop in power. That may still push me to the used option depending on how much it dropped. Silly I know but the heart isn’t often logical. I guess I would like the fastest/most powerful 3 pedal car made with a supercharged V8 and a real backseat. Unless something strange happens I’d imagine the 19-20 HCWB will forever be that car.

Even the RE, SS and Demon will look slow (crazy to say that 😂) compared to what auto electric cars will be doing in 5-10 years. I mean just look at what the Tesla Plaid is already doing in the straights.

Also, I hope no one takes offense as I’m not a hater of automatics. I’d like a TRX, Trackhawk or Charger Redeye in the future. But they are not a replacement to an M6 Challenger HC for me.

 

[Greengohellcat]

Agree with this.

Obviously, mileage and emissions greatly affected by how one drives the car, some drivers can probably equal the automatic transmission while others burn way more fuel with increased emissions.

The on and off the throttle every time you shift also increases emissions and I saw this mentioned in an old article when the CAGS (skip-shift) first came out on the 1989 Corvette, their reasoning being the fewer shifts the lower the emissions and that might figure into why they all manuals seem to have it now. And surely the added fuel savings doesn't hurt.

So while there may be something to it, possibly Dodge just feels they've got bigger fish to fry and can make more $$$ moving forward with other packages rather than keep messing with an option that's sad to say, on its way out anyway.




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Second paragraph, 100%.
"Throttle hang" which is not pleasant, is programmed in for emissions reasons.
Getting it just right so manual drivers aren't put off by the programming (+ safe driving characteristics) is prolly the magic they're looking for.
Just a guess on my part.

 

[PitchBlackCat]

Let’s not forget that dodge STILL shows manuals as the standard tranny option in their 2021 and 2022 release notes of available options. Why would they keep those if the plan wasn’t to continue trying to get them to pass and make them available once that happens? If they truly said autos only from here forward, I feel like their release sheets would reflect that.

 

[99GTS]

Let’s not forget that dodge STILL shows manuals as the standard tranny option in their 2021 and 2022 release notes of available options. Why would they keep those if the plan wasn’t to continue trying to get them to pass and make them available once that happens? If they truly said autos only from here forward, I feel like their release sheets would reflect that.

Im still hoping! Love Dodge either way even if this disappointment comes to fruition.