Motortube's 22 HC Charger is slooooow
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its a 1000hp trackhawk?!
You see the M5 and manual ZL1 races after that? Clearly not.
Well, they are slow. He's right about that one. For all the sound and fury the Hellcats make, they just aren't fast cars in 2022... not for their price and not for the amount of power they make. Car & Driver said it best when they said, "The Hellcat is an odd machine. 717hp has never been slower in any other car. It's clear that Dodge has had no plan or ability to optimize the car over the years because it just hasn't aged well at all."
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I disagree, down a quarter mile with a tire they pretty much beat anything in its class/price range. Go look at a ZL1 on a tire vs a hellcat on a tire, Hellcat usually wins. As for an M5, its almost 40k more than a hellcat and over engineered. Hellcats are fast, just not engineered to exploit the power. Too heavy, poor weight distribution, Etc. anyways, just my opinion.
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M5 is notoriously overpowered, lighter, and 40k more. ZL1 is lighter and is on a tire so probably hooked better, plus its "lightly modded" which means probably Corsa exhaust, CAI and what else?
I have a ZL1 on a tire. Stock stock I went 124mph.
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they are sweet cars. Hellcat Challenger on a tire at Sea level traps 126-129
I wouldn't quite call a Hellcat slow. Stock for stock there's not many cars from the factory that can beat it. I've raced quite a lot of cars at the track and other than few that I can think of off the top of my head like a C7 Z06, Redeye, GT500, Demon, have only beaten me. Those cars are fast but not worth the cost that they are today with these prices.
I bought my 2019 Hellcat two years ago and it was for a great deal in the low 50 k range with 6k miles . It's a lot of car for the money. Some of the cars I mentioned above have only gotten me by about a car and a half length and by a couple of tenths ( except for the GT500 and Demon) but even those two cars are pretty pricey and not worth the upgrade just to be faster when throwing a simple tune and pulley on the Cat will rival them or possibly beat them for a few grand.
The Hellcat will even be faster and or rival exotic vehicles (depending on the model). Plus the comfort, space, daily drivability/road trip of the Cat is hard to beat. The power to comfort ratio of the Hellcat is better than most cars.
Well, from having owned a 90k Hellcat and a 78k C8... my C8 is a LOT faster than my Hellcat was. My C8 runs the 1/4mi a shade under 11s (10.94) on ALL SEASON tires in bone stock trim in the Florida summer heat. The best I ever ran on my Hellcat was also a 10.9 but on drag radials. My norm on the Hellcat was in the 11.1-11.3 range.
The only places a Hellcat thrives is on a prepped drag strip with DRs or slicks installed, and roll races above 100mph. The M4 is faster than a Hellcat anywhere but the 1/4 and high speed rolls. M5, is faster pretty much all around. '22 GT500 and ZL1 are both faster than a Hellcat, with the GT500 being on par to faster than a Redeye.
Now, looking ahead, there's a slew of JBs in '22 and most of the Redeyes that are going to be priced above the cost of the average M5. It makes no sense. I can get an M5 here for around 129k. I've always said that if any Dodge I ever want comes to within 10k of the cost of an M5, that I'd just bite the bullet and go up to the M5 because the M5 is such a dominant competitor. The Hellcats were a wonderful value prior to 2019 when the prices started hiking dramatically. But, when the average Hellcat sold eclipses $100,000 like what we see in 2022, now you're away from that ZL1 comparison market to having to say, "OK, what cars in the low to mid 6 figure range compete with this car?" And the answer is that most of the performance cars in that segment are handily faster in every conceivable metric.
Thus, the Hellcat has become the $100,000 priced, $60,000 Mustang killer. It's no longer able to punch up its weight class, because it is outclassed at its current market position. Thus, it is relegated to having to punch down at much cheaper vehicles. And, that's not going to be easy because the 2023 Mustang GT is leaked to be an 11.1 second 1/4 car @ 3.5s 0-60 in bone stock, NA format with a price tag starting beneath $50,000.... and Ford will make 100,000 of them per year.
So, for double the price, is Dodge delivering double the performance? Hell no. They haven't changed anything since 2015, and even NA Mustangs are going to be faster than the Hellcat. A car that costs $120k out the door should damn well be fast. The Hellcat's problem is that it's fast when compared to $50-70k cars, where it too should be priced, but it's slow when you start putting it up against 911 S, M5, the C8, and so on. Heck, a 718 can put a Redeye on notice if its got the proper factory spec. Even the lowly M4 is with a shade over 500hp puts the Hellcat back a couple car lengths on the street in a 0-100 run. Keep in mind that all of these can be had in premium trim from between 100k-130k... which is right about what Dodge is charging for the '23 Redeyes and Jailbreaks.
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Your argument here assumes a lot of things, like leaks on a mustang not for sale. When that mustang does come out, it wont be sold for MSRP just like used C8s are being sold for over 85k regularly and cant hold more than 2 people, plus gets walked in a 60 roll against a hellcat. Arguing about types of racing is like saying the C8 is better cause it launches harder...its a mid engine I truly hope so. I agree SOME pricing is outrageous but I paid 73k OTD in march for a HCWB which is serious bang for buck considering a Mach 1 goes for 65k...911s and M5 customers dont usually cross shop these cars. Love the conversation, appreciate your POV as well.
2020 Challenger Hellcat Redeye Widebody Indigo Blue with Graphics Package
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I've never liked that guy..
Agreed. HC is great bang for the buck. But not against a ZL1. They are cheaper, just as fast and have a much more well rounded usecase for what you are getting. They will road race, roll race and drag race with the best of them. Back seats are there for small kids if needed. And they are very reliable.
Now start modding then the hellcat pulls back. Money to power achieved is far greater with the HC. But you still only have a one trick pony. ZL1 pulls back when you think you are going to take all that HP in the HC and be any level of fun or competitive on a track of any kind (excluding drag).
I've had the luxury to own both. The Hellcat as a muscle car and the ZL1 as a sports car. I wish I could own both together...
Not to make this a HC vs ZL1 thread, but this video does a great job explaining both sides and they pick a winner.
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Agreed, looking at buying my 2nd "fun" car next spring and badly want a black ZL1...buuuuttt I also would rather have a Mp4 12c as well! I'd hate to have 2 muscle cars even though the ZL1 is a bonafide sports car!
Watch the video I added to my post. Great comparison.
Agreed and he better watch it or he'll end up in the same legal trouble of that guy that had his Demon serverly damage by the so called drunk driver..
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ive seen it a few times, lots of traction limitations. notice the hellcat trap speed is higher.
I was talking about the later part of the video where they take both to the canyon roads and talk about them both. Their opinions are about spot on to me. They both have their place and either are fantastic. You picked the HC and I picked the ZL1.
Not all Hellcats are 100K cars. I bought my 2020 HC Challenger off the showroom floor in March 2020 (covid was just really getting going).
It's a base HC with only a strip package. Sticker was 62k and some change. With the power dollars ($10 per hp off) military discount, return customer discount, I got it for 54k before tax, tag etc. It had 9 miles on it.
I realize it's not the fastest thing out there, I have been doing this car thing for a long, long time and I am not stupid.
I have done a few small mods and can run into the 10s with drag radials reliably. 9s are not far away. Back in my day cars running 9s were full blown race cars.
In the 70s, 80s and even 90s just getting a car into the 12s was a challenge (pun intended). You ended up with a loud, fumy car that was not dependable and got about 8 mph if you were lucky.
You can have your plastic cars, vetts, Beemers, stangs, Camaros etc.
I will keep my Hellcat. It IS fast, and it's the coolest car around.
Varooom
It's a base HC with only a strip package. Sticker was 62k and some change. With the power dollars ($10 per hp off) military discount, return customer discount, I got it for 54k before tax, tag etc. It had 9 miles on it.
I realize it's not the fastest thing out there, I have been doing this car thing for a long, long time and I am not stupid.
I have done a few small mods and can run into the 10s with drag radials reliably. 9s are not far away. Back in my day cars running 9s were full blown race cars.
In the 70s, 80s and even 90s just getting a car into the 12s was a challenge (pun intended). You ended up with a loud, fumy car that was not dependable and got about 8 mph if you were lucky.
You can have your plastic cars, vetts, Beemers, stangs, Camaros etc.
I will keep my Hellcat. It IS fast, and it's the coolest car around.
Varooom
Unlike Dodge, Ford actually puts limits on their dealerships in regards to price gouging and ADMs. When you have a volume car like a Mustang GT, they don't generally mark those up because they're made in excess of 80,000 units every year. The Mach 1 and Shelbys are a bit different, but even then I don't recall ever seeing one marked up on an order sheet. Now, GT500s on the lot, ab-so-frickin-lutely marked up. The '23 Mustang is a new vehicle that's supposedly lighter and more powerful. I think the early press photos of it are ugly as sin, but it's the size of the S197 Mustang, so should weigh in 200-300 lb lighter.
It's good you got a nice deal on a HCWB, but most people are not buying HCWBs. The REWB is the best selling HC variant and in '22, most people paid over $90,000. I would normally agree that people who shop HCs don't cross-shop 911s, but that's not true in today's market... since many of the REs cost the same or more than an entry level 911. Hence why I've said Dodge is out of their depth because they're getting into a fight they have no chance in winning with a car priced where it is that doesn't have the value to back it up. The HCs and REs are 70-80k worth of car, back in 2019. In the modern era that is '22, they're a bit of an old hat. An entry level 911, for example, is priced about 10 grand CHEAPER than the average Jailbreak. Mainly due to the fact that they have some nice incentives right now at Porsche and the base 911 can be had for 106-108 to start and with rebate savings, you can get it down to under 100k. The loaded JB I had on order was close to 110k. So, when you're making cars more expensive than Porsche 911s, it begs to be compared as to why in the hell does it cost so much? ...Especially when compared to a typically exuberantly styled, over-engineered German sports car. And, this is just discussing MSRPs and not added ADMs from Dodge, coming soon to everywhere.
This is a $104,000 car:
This is a $110,000 car:
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