[MonsterCat]

Hey Hellcat Forum!

I've been infatuated with the Challenger Hellcat since they were first released in 2015. It wasn't until recently that I had an opportunity to purchase my first example which is a low mileage built 2016 Challenger Hellcat, 6 speed manual with an Arrington 426 stroker short block. There's only 8K miles on the chassis and 1200 miles on the engine which was built by Jim at Real Street Performance in NY.

Known Mods:

• Forged Arrington 426 Short Block
• Stock Heads with Chromoly Valve Train
• Stock Supercharger with Litens 2.75 Hellraiser upper and ATI 10% larger lower pulley
• ID1700 Injectors
• Billet Fuel Hat and dual ti285s pumps
• Fore Fuel system with FC Controller
• Billet Fuel rails
• Aeromotive FPR
• Zeltronix Innovate Ethanol Sensor
• Long Tube Headers
• DSS Aluminum Drive Shaft
• NGK IRIDIUM 6510 spark plugs
• Clutch McCleod RXT1200 V2 Clutch Assembly (90 miles into break-in)

The car came with a Diabosport tuner and was dynotuned on Ignite E98 making 910whp on a dynojet.

I'm new to this platform and checked over the car best I could and even spoke to the engine builder directly to confirm the car was good to go. When I test drove the car I never got into the throttle more than 10% since it was 2 degrees outside and we were on drag radials. I assumed since the car and engine were so low mileage it should be a solid vehicle.

I trailered the car home and took it for it's first drive once the weather finally broke up here in Maine and I had a sunny day with temps above freezing. Cruising around the car runs fine but giving it more than 25% throttle it's starts misfiring like crazy. I contacted the seller as soon as I got back and asked him why it's misfiring and he stated that it's caused by the fact that there's only E85 in the tank and the car is tuned for E98 (Ethanol gauge is showing 75%).

I also contacted the engine builder to confirm what the seller was saying and he insists that the car should not be misfiring on the lower Ethanol content and should be pulling timing to compensate. He suggested checking the plugs since the car sat around for so long. I used the Diablosport to log the misfire and found it was occurring on cylinder #4 ( logged detonation and timing on this pull and there were no events of either). The plugs looked good on this cylinder but when I used the borescope I found minor pitting and other signs of detonation on top of the piston. Every other cylinder looked great except for #4.

I approached the seller about my findings and he immediately blamed me for hurting the engine and stated I was supposed to only run E98 (even though he sold me the car with pump E85 in the tank). I've had the car for only a week and driven it 19 miles with no more than 40% throttle. I have a hard time believing this damage wasn't already there before I bought the car.

I have since had the car towed over to a local performance shop for a diagnosis and they gave the engine a clean bill of health with excellent compression and leak-down results. They have yet to determine the cause of the misfire but think it could be a bad injector or ignition coil. I have a feeling the cause would be a bad injector since that would explain the pitting on #4.

I have swapped the ignition coils between 2/4 and sent the injectors off for cleaning and flow testing. I plan on having this car retuned for 93 since we don't have E85 available at the pumps in New England.

Anything else you guys recommend I do to resolve this issue? Thanks for listening to this long-winded intro and I appreciate any knowledge you can share with a new Hellcat member!

 

[CPO Super stock]

I am of no help as I have never seen a E98 tuned street car.

I hope you get it worked out and am interested in your progress and finial #'s on 93 octane.

 

[MonsterCat]

I am of no help as I have never seen a E98 tuned street car.

I hope you get it worked out and am interested in your progress and finial #'s on 93 octane.

Thanks man! I have dyno session scheduled for next week so I'm optimistic I can get this figured out. I'll post numbers as soon as I have them!

 

[frictioncircle]

buying a highly modded car like this is all about your comfort/knowledge level..most of us mere mortals would not touch it after looking over that list...you seem to have the right attitude. Best of luck getting it sorted.

 

[furious70]

Well, something is going on with #4 for sure, but also, even the OEM flex fuel vehicles have difficulty with e85 in such cold temps. I have 2 uncles who work as dodge techs and they advised me not to run e85 in the winter as they especially see the 3.6 powered vehicles come in with complaints of low power, misfires, etc. We had a caravan and a charger se at the time.

 

[tacamo01]

Excellent compression and leak-down results are good news. I agree about running e85 in really cold weather. Checking the injectors and re-tuning for 93 octane is a good start. Could just be the fuel but I would definitely get a tuner that knows a lot about Hemi's going forward.

 

[MonsterCat]

buying a highly modded car like this is all about your comfort/knowledge level..most of us mere mortals would not touch it after looking over that list...you seem to have the right attitude. Best of luck getting it sorted.

I actually was originally looking for an unmodded car but there are VERY few for sale in Maine. While I'm new to the HC platform I'm no stranger to modifying cars and I thought this car would give me a head start and save me some money in achieving the power goals I have for the vehicle. I was comforted by that fact that this was built by a reputable shop (the same shop that performed Demonology's build) and had very low hours. I did not expect to run into problems already...

 

[MonsterCat]

Excellent compression and leak-down results are good news. I agree about running e85 in really cold weather. Checking the injectors and re-tuning for 93 octane is a good start. Could just be the fuel but I would definitely get a tuner that knows a lot about Hemi's going forward.

I have a Mopar tuner lined up but he has not done a lot of Hellcat's unfortunately. Ethanol certainly does strange things in colder weather but I'm not sure it would only effect one cylinder. Either way, with a healthy engine the only two conceivable causes for the misfire I can think of would be the injector or coil, both which are an easy fix

 

[frictioncircle]

The picture is somewhat muddy because there seems to be friction between you and the previous owner from what you have posted....this raises a red flag...of course there are always 2 sides to a transaction. As stated above the engine is healthy so it must be a tuning /spark/fuel issue.

 

[MonsterCat]

Well, something is going on with #4 for sure, but also, even the OEM flex fuel vehicles have difficulty with e85 in such cold temps. I have 2 uncles who work as dodge techs and they advised me not to run e85 in the winter as they especially see the 3.6 powered vehicles come in with complaints of low power, misfires, etc. We had a caravan and a charger se at the time.

I had not considered how much of a factor the cold could be playing with this issue. Thanks for your input!

 

[HemiMetal]

Legally you can't get ripped off when you buy a car as-is, either from a private seller or a used car lot unless the seller gave you a written warranty, which is rare with private sellers. I'd never give one!

"Legally" aside, you can't be ripped off if you felt so good about the purchase that you didn't have a pre-sale inspection performed before you made the deal. And trust me, I hate it when people say the same to me because it takes a lot of effort to inconvenience a seller to either let you take the car in for an inspection, or to take it in himself (even if you offer to pay for it).

Two years ago I bought a 2013 BMW SUV for my daily driver. The seller had complete maintenance and repair records and I took time (sitting with the seller at an AAA office) combing through the previous year's records to note any major work that still had to be done. Everything looked good. The seller had addressed every issue and kept up maintenance per the manufacturer's schedule.

The seller had another buyer wanting to buy the car if I passed on it. Whether he did or didn't was irrelevant. I wanted the car and bought it on the spot. Less than a year later, I dropped $4000 for repairs after I took it in to my own mechanic for regular maintenance. At that time, I requested a complete inspection that uncovered several red-light issues that had been missed by the seller's dealership service center. I didn't get mad, I just accepted that I made a decision from which I could have walked away. But dammit, buying a used car is like gambling.

 

[2ndAmend]

I hate to say this, but, it would have been a good idea to ask here before you bought. There is a lot of first hand knowledge here, much of it with E85.

You have a highly modified car tuned for a fuel that is not available, the closest E85 is in MA. And based on the little I have read here about E85, the guys here make extensive modifications all optimized for E85. You need to get it back to 93, that make take a lot of work, parts and a tune. Did the previous owner give you the OEM parts?

I hope you can get this straightened out, please keep us posted.

 

[MonsterCat]

I hate to say this, but, it would have been a good idea to ask here before you bought. There is a lot of first hand knowledge here, much of it with E85.

You have a highly modified car tuned for a fuel that is not available, the closest E85 is in MA. And based on the little I have read here about E85, the guys here make extensive modifications all optimized for E85. You need to get it back to 93, that make take a lot of work, parts and a tune. Did the previous owner give you the OEM parts?

I hope you can get this straightened out, please keep us posted.

No OEM engine came with vehicle other than what was already bolted on the car. To switch over to 93 requires a upper pulley, belt, injectors and retune, all of which I've budgeted into the purchase of the car. I wish we could petition some of the local gas stations to start carrying E85. I miss having that fuel available

 

[Slowpoke387]

Legally you can't get ripped off when you buy a car as-is, either from a private seller or a used car lot unless the seller gave you a written warranty, which is rare with private sellers. I'd never give one!

"Legally" aside, you can't be ripped off if you felt so good about the purchase that you didn't have a pre-sale inspection performed before you made the deal. And trust me, I hate it when people say the same to me because it takes a lot of effort to inconvenience a seller to either let you take the car in for an inspection, or to take it in himself (even if you offer to pay for it).

Two years ago I bought a 2013 BMW SUV for my daily driver. The seller had complete maintenance and repair records and I took time (sitting with the seller at an AAA office) combing through the previous year's records to note any major work that still had to be done. Everything looked good. The seller had addressed every issue and kept up maintenance per the manufacturer's schedule.

The seller had another buyer wanting to buy the car if I passed on it. Whether he did or didn't was irrelevant. I wanted the car and bought it on the spot. Less than a year later, I dropped $4000 for repairs after I took it in to my own mechanic for regular maintenance. At that time, I requested a complete inspection that uncovered several red-light issues that had been missed by the seller's dealership service center. I didn't get mad, I just accepted that I made a decision from which I could have walked away. But dammit, buying a used car is like gambling.

That’s because it’s a BMW. You’re never going to buy a used one out of factory warranty that you dont empty your wallet repairing. Notorious. There was no gamble there at all, you never had a chance. I‘m in the business and we won’t bother selling them, not worth it anymore.

 

[MonsterCat]

That’s because it’s a BMW. You’re never going to buy a used one out of factory warranty that you dont empty your wallet repairing. Notorious. There was no gamble there at all, you never had a chance. I‘m in the business and we won’t bother selling them, not worth it anymore.

I'm a little too familiar with the BMW experience myself and can confirm what you're saying is true. After owning 8 of their vehicles I've sworn off the brand forever...

 

[MonsterCat]

Legally you can't get ripped off when you buy a car as-is, either from a private seller or a used car lot unless the seller gave you a written warranty, which is rare with private sellers. I'd never give one!

"Legally" aside, you can't be ripped off if you felt so good about the purchase that you didn't have a pre-sale inspection performed before you made the deal. And trust me, I hate it when people say the same to me because it takes a lot of effort to inconvenience a seller to either let you take the car in for an inspection, or to take it in himself (even if you offer to pay for it).

Two years ago I bought a 2013 BMW SUV for my daily driver. The seller had complete maintenance and repair records and I took time (sitting with the seller at an AAA office) combing through the previous year's records to note any major work that still had to be done. Everything looked good. The seller had addressed every issue and kept up maintenance per the manufacturer's schedule.

The seller had another buyer wanting to buy the car if I passed on it. Whether he did or didn't was irrelevant. I wanted the car and bought it on the spot. Less than a year later, I dropped $4000 for repairs after I took it in to my own mechanic for regular maintenance. At that time, I requested a complete inspection that uncovered several red-light issues that had been missed by the seller's dealership service center. I didn't get mad, I just accepted that I made a decision from which I could have walked away. But dammit, buying a used car is like gambling.

I'm by no means a legal expert and haven't even stayed in a Holiday Inn in the last decade but I know there are some legal protections in place for the buyer. These issues usually end up in small claims court but a seller is liable if it can be proven that they purposely misrepresented or concealed vital information relevant an item, regardless of any "as is-where is" clause.

This is purely academic in this case because it's not worth the hassle to pursue this legally and I sincerely think I can get this Cat running right without much more difficulty. Unfortunately, pre-purchase inspections are not always possible in private party transactions since most sellers will not allow the vehicle to leave their property without cash in hand. To be honest I can't really blame them for that. Bringing a mechanic along can be an option but their ability to assess a vehicles condition would be greatly limited without direct access to a lift.

As you said, buying a used car is really akin to gambling, especially in this crazy market. I don't mind taking a gamble every once in a while for the right car 😅

 

[GreenMachine15]

I wish you the best with your situation, your next stop needs to be a tuner.

 

[MJS73]

Legally you can't get ripped off when you buy a car as-is, either from a private seller or a used car lot unless the seller gave you a written warranty, which is rare with private sellers. I'd never give one!

"Legally" aside, you can't be ripped off if you felt so good about the purchase that you didn't have a pre-sale inspection performed before you made the deal. And trust me, I hate it when people say the same to me because it takes a lot of effort to inconvenience a seller to either let you take the car in for an inspection, or to take it in himself (even if you offer to pay for it).

Exactly, and I would have preferred if this thread was titled "Did my lack of due diligence come back to bite me?" because talking to two people that had a vested interest in the car wasn't exactly due diligence.

 

[MonsterCat]

I wish you the best with your situation, your next stop needs to be a tuner.

I have an appt booked with my Tuner this coming week. I'll keep this thread updated with results

 

[MonsterCat]

Exactly, and I would have preferred if this thread was titled "Did my lack of due diligence come back to bite me?" because talking to two people that had a vested interest in the car wasn't exactly due diligence.

There's inherent risk in buying any vehicle, used or new. No amount of "due diligence" can guarantee a perfect outcome as there are a slew of examples of mechanic's failing to uncover hidden issues during a pre-purchase inspection. As a buyer your "tool bag" is limited in illuminating every potential problem with a vehicle and to some degree you're still reliant on the seller's word when things like vehicle history reports, mechanic's inspection, et. al., don't reveal everything.

It's pathetic to see how little integrity exists anymore, especially into today's inflated car market. This thread was intended to show an example of this as well as an indictment against fellow car enthusiasts taking advantage of each other to make a few extra bucks.

An immense of time and pre-work went into making the purchase decision of this vehicle by myself and others. I didn't think it was necessary to go into detail about this on a public forum given the fact that the only member that has any skin in the game (time/money) in this transaction, is myself. If your sensibilities are still too offended by my title, you're welcome to start your own thread and title it however you'd like.