SRT Hellcat Forum banner

1 - 20 of 40 Posts

·
Registered
Challenger SRT Hellcat
Joined
·
3,118 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Is anyone running this on their Hellcat to run E85? Seems a lot simpler than the other options:


If its junk, then let us know as well LOL.

R.K.
 

·
Registered
Challenger SRT Hellcat
Joined
·
267 Posts
Get with a good tuner. Pretty sure HHP, Barth and others have flex fuel tunes using the factory setup. The factory ecu is setup to handle this it just wasn't enabled for the hellcats. These guys have that all worked out and it's doing it the right way.
 

·
Registered
Challenger SRT Hellcat
Joined
·
3,118 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Get with a good tuner. Pretty sure HHP, Barth and others have flex fuel tunes using the factory setup. The factory ecu is setup to handle this it just wasn't enabled for the hellcats. These guys have that all worked out and it's doing it the right way.
No. It’s not that easy. You need the flex fuel kit and install it. What I posted is a alternate option.
R.K.
 

·
Registered
Charger SRT 392
Joined
·
257 Posts
As I understand it, this only adjusts fueling, if you arent moving to a new timing table for use with E85, you are leaving most of the potential gains on the table.
Get a real flex fuel tune with no nonstock hardware added...
 

·
Registered
Challenger SRT Hellcat
Joined
·
267 Posts
No. It’s not that easy. You need the flex fuel kit and install it. What I posted is a alternate option.
R.K.
It actually is that easy. If you are making more power or other mods you may need bigger injectors or more fuel pump (BAP or fuel pump replacements) but the factory computer is designed for it and the better way to go. Also, mks_ds brings up good points. The factory computer can adjust timing to take advantage of the higher octane e85 brings to the table.

$.02
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
493 Posts
This setup appears to be a stand alone "piggy back" setup that looks like it has an ethanol sensor, then based off that reading it takes the factory injector pulswidth and applies a multiplayer or scaler then sends that to the injector. Its "no tuning required" because the tuning is in that standalone module.

The factory hellcat ecu has flex fuel capable, its just that all the tables are zeroed out. Factory flex fuel works off fuel trims, once you hit a certain percent fuel trim in a specified window is when it "switches" over to e85. It can then estimate ethanol content based off the fuel trims and apply scalers or multipliers throughout the tables.
Ford is pretty big on this method, which is why most of the 2011+ Ford vehicles have factory widebands (even the non ecoboost engines), that and then they can also have WOT closed loop tuning.
Chevy uses a flex fuel sensor I believe, and can obviously flat out read the ethanol percentage and can adjust accordingly.

My opinion: I wouldn't use it. Stock injectors and fuel pump do not safely flow enough.
 

·
Registered
Challenger SRT Hellcat
Joined
·
3,118 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
The point is the factory car doesn’t have a flex fuel sensor so it can’t adjust on the fly based on the ethanol content. Yes you can tune the stock ecu for e85 but you hope you’re always getting e85 at the pump. It could be less and could possibly damage the car. This kit and others solves this issue.
R.K.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
493 Posts
The point is the factory car doesn’t have a flex fuel sensor so it can’t adjust on the fly based on the ethanol content. Yes you can tune the stock ecu for e85 but you hope you’re always getting e85 at the pump. It could be less and could possibly damage the car. This kit and others solves this issue.
R.K.
The factory hellcat ecu has flex fuel capable, its just that all the tables are zeroed out. Factory flex fuel works off fuel trims, once you hit a certain percent fuel trim in a specified window is when it "switches" over to e85. It can then estimate ethanol content based off the fuel trims and apply scalers or multipliers throughout the tables.
Ford is pretty big on this method, which is why most of the 2011+ Ford vehicles have factory widebands (even the non ecoboost engines), that and then they can also have WOT closed loop tuning.
 

·
Registered
Challenger SRT Hellcat
Joined
·
267 Posts
The point is the factory car doesn’t have a flex fuel sensor so it can’t adjust on the fly based on the ethanol content. Yes you can tune the stock ecu for e85 but you hope you’re always getting e85 at the pump. It could be less and could possibly damage the car. This kit and others solves this issue.
R.K.
You don't need it. Pretty sure none of the Dodge vehicles, including the ones that come with flex fuel enabled have the ethanol content sensor. (Not 100% positive on that) The computer is set to infer ethanol content from other sensor readings. There are several oem systems that work this way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
493 Posts
Ford does not use an ethanol sensor on their flex vehicles. Dodge I don't think does either. Chevys do though, most of your ethanol sensors are a chevy part number even.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
276 Posts
All this box does is fool the injectors to squirt more based on how much ethanol is being seen.

You will get more from this because it’ll reduce knock, but at the end of the day you’ll hit the limits of the factory tables, and if the car is typically ran in a colder environment I doubt this will add any power.

Seems like it could be solid to limit knock and at least retain some power for track days if you don’t want to modify anything.
 

·
Registered
Charger SRT Hellcat
Joined
·
552 Posts
You gain nothing other than being able to run ethanol based fuel, no extra power. If you use this in conjunction with a tune, then yes, you pick up power. I believe Satera and or Barth are using this along with the tuning to monitor E %.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
77 Posts
You gain nothing other than being able to run ethanol based fuel, no extra power. If you use this in conjunction with a tune, then yes, you pick up power. I believe Satera and or Barth are using this along with the tuning to monitor E %.
Is this based on any anecdotal evidence? I've personally run their product on a non-hellcat car (C63 AMG) and saw almost 40whp in potential on a stock tune.

I've also personally witnessed a stock hellcat with JUST this proflex commander on a dyno put down close to 55WHP more than a stock hellcat, that's a far cry from the 70WHP that AFD claims the kit produces but individual results may vary.

In conclusion, you are wrong about it being snake oil - but right about being more potential on the table with a tune.
 

·
Registered
Charger SRT 392
Joined
·
257 Posts
How does a fuel change produce more power without adjusting timing to take advantage of the increased octane? The only way this could show gains is if the vehicle was knock limited due to running the available 91 or 93 octane pump fuel. If it was knocking on 91 or 93, and then you are safely able to provide enough fuel to run e85, sure, you will see gains that seem impressive but they are not realistic.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
77 Posts
Is pointless a better term than snake oil?
View attachment 556882

Did they provide any conducive data to that claim? I'd like to see it. Until then, it's armchair quarterbacking.

I'm glad that you quoted a post with no valid data and I gave you real world experiences.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
77 Posts
How does a fuel change produce more power without adjusting timing to take advantage of the increased octane? The only way this could show gains is if the vehicle was knock limited due to running the available 91 or 93 octane pump fuel. If it was knocking on 91 or 93, and then you are safely able to provide enough fuel to run e85, sure, you will see gains that seem impressive but they are not realistic.

Are you privy to tuning or is this information you have ready?

Even under optimal conditions for 91/93, the flame speed produced by E85 will develop MAX efficiency with slightly less timing. Because of the burn rate of E85 it is certainly more tolerant of more spark advance (so you can make more power with more timing, yes) - it makes MORE power with less advance than 91.

In simpler terms, the laminar flame speed of ethanol combustion is faster than that of gasoline, Faster Flame = Less spark advance required to deliver peak pressure at the right point of the engine cycle.

The timing table in car from the factory by default for E85 can be used if the injector pulse is CORRECT, to be beneficial for E85.

My source is my personal experience on HPTuners and many dyno runs converting vehicles to e85, albeit the LS Platform but boost is boost, I can provide runs, logs and my own personal tables.

Also for reference the stock Hellcat tune has a ton of knock retard built into it, which you would not hit with E85, I promise everyone running a stock tune on 91/93 is pulling timing on almost 100% of their pulls and if they are modified, even more so.

556884


556886
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Charger SRT 392
Joined
·
257 Posts
I agree with most of what you are saying here. You are also seemingly agreeing with my theory that the gains being seen are likely due to the engine knocking on 91/93 and not knocking on E85.
That said, I don't believe the specific attributes you point out about E85 allow for much power gain in a street car application, not without more timing optimization.
I don't know what you mean about using the factory E85 timing table. That requires tuning on a non flex fuel calibration. Hence my whole point here.

You could say I am privy to tuning info, as I do work for the company whose software is represented in the screenshots you shared.
We also have a CMR tuned, flex fuel Redeye that runs low 9's on a 2.75 and E85, and those are the kind of results I can sink my teeth into ;)
 
1 - 20 of 40 Posts
Top