[Blkout]

As for mustangs I disagree that they are doing turbos because they came NA. They are going with forced induction because they came NA but they had a choice between blower and turbo. Some have chosen blower but the fastest guys in that community are turbo. They chose turbo because it was the option that best fit there needs and that's from 700whp to 2000whp.

You disagreed with my statement but stated the same reason why I did. Maybe you misunderstood me, this was exactly the reason why I said the Mustang community is choosing turbos.

 

[Blkout]

Well if you are looking to build your dream house in an area you don't know who do you call? Do you search for the best electrician, the best plumber, the best concrete guy and the huge list of other vendors you need to complete your dream home?
No, you search the best general contractor who has relationships with all the vendors you'll need and a portfolio of building homes like the one you have in mind.

I work with one of the best tuners in the country, fabricators, turbo manufacturers, turbo component producers, engine builders and the list goes on. I've taken their expertise in their individual areas and built a VERY fast street car that works well and I'd like to see others have the same experience.

Fair enough explanation but what differentiates you from a top reputable shop that can do the same thing?

 

[Cheapokitty]

Fair enough explanation but what differentiates you from a top reputable shop that can do the same thing?

There isn't a shop / company that ONLY does Twin Turbo mopars. I would be the first and only deticated turbo mopar company, I wouldn't do anything else.

 

[Blkout]

There isn't a shop / company that ONLY does Twin Turbo mopars. I would be the first and only deticated turbo mopar company, I wouldn't do anything else.

Fair enough, BUT, what would make a customer want to go to you over a top reputable shop, even if they do other mods as well? Reputation matters to many people since people have been burned by smaller shops. I'm certainly not implying you're not reputable, but it does take years to build a good reputation which is going to take time.

 

[Cheapokitty]

Fair enough, BUT, what would make a customer want to go to you over a top reputable shop, even if they do other mods as well? Reputation matters to many people since people have been burned by smaller shops. I'm certainly not implying you're not reputable, but it does take years to build a good reputation which is going to take time.

So true reputation is earned....

I believe my initial customers will come from those who's been watching my videos for the last few years and feel they know me. The others will come from the fact that I've built a truly fast street car that's usable as a daily.
Hundreds of thousands of people have watched me problem solve my way to my dream car capable of 4 sec 60-130s with a manual transmission on the street (no prep). I've posted multiple 1200+ whp dyno runs and backed it up with record setting runs at roll race events all over the northeast. They have seen the Mexico runs of a full weight challenger beating tesla plaids, LMR1200 ZR1 and other 1000+ whp vehicles.
My guess is that someone is about to spend alot of money modifying their hellcat and like me not only do they want to be fast, they want to be different. Well I think I'll be their guy based on what I've shown them.

 

[2ndgen]

I think SRTMush followed a similar path--figured out his mods, got his name out there on the track, then opened up a shop to do the same/similar mods for others. It can be done. You don't need to ask permission... just do it. First step is to just go find that first customer and make them really happy.

 

[Speedy]

Mush's shop closed up FYI. It's a tough business.

As for the OP question, I think it boils down to what your "service" provides. The general contractor analogy is a good one. Back when I had my old Challenger built I researched several performance shops, interviewed them via phone, etc. My main criteria were reputation and one throat to choke. Several shops had motor built by company A, installed by company B, and tuned by company C. That's a good way to end up with a headache if there's a problem and the finger pointing starts.

The shop I chose in the end did everything in house from building the motor, install of everything, and tune by their in house tuner. They were also able to do it for less than I could myself by the time I had parts shipped, my personal time, finding a tuner, etc. Entire build was completed in 4 days and I drove the car home halfway across the country. If there was a problem they could only point the finger at themselves. O'l Orange Krush is still running strong and now resides in Germany believe it or not.

If @Cheapokitty plans to provide that type of service on this kind of build I think those looking for a TT setup would find value in that. One stop shopping and one person the customer goes to for any problems.

I do have a question. How is a 1000RWHP TT build easier on the stock motor than 1000RWHP from a supercharger? The engine just sees 1000+HP it doesn't know how that's being provided right?

 

[saagz87]

Mush's shop closed up FYI. It's a tough business.

As for the OP question, I think it boils down to what your "service" provides. The general contractor analogy is a good one. Back when I had my old Challenger built I researched several performance shops, interviewed them via phone, etc. My main criteria were reputation and one throat to choke. Several shops had motor built by company A, installed by company B, and tuned by company C. That's a good way to end up with a headache if there's a problem and the finger pointing starts.

The shop I chose in the end did everything in house from building the motor, install of everything, and tune by their in house tuner. They were also able to do it for less than I could myself by the time I had parts shipped, my personal time, finding a tuner, etc. Entire build was completed in 4 days and I drove the car home halfway across the country. If there was a problem they could only point the finger at themselves. O'l Orange Krush is still running strong and now resides in Germany believe it or not.

If @Cheapokitty plans to provide that type of service on this kind of build I think those looking for a TT setup would find value in that. One stop shopping and one person the customer goes to for any problems.

I do have a question. How is a 1000RWHP TT build easier on the stock motor than 1000RWHP from a supercharger? The engine just sees 1000+HP it doesn't know how that's being provided right?

While twin turbos add a lot of complexity that can go wrong over a blower, it is arguably easier on an engine to make the same power with turbos vs a blower. No added load to front of crank and typically less low-mid range torque

 

[2ndgen]

If it takes 80HP right off the crank to power the SC to produce X lbs of boost, why wouldn't it rob the same amount of energy via exhaust restriction used to spin the turbos enough to produce the same amount of work required to make the same X lbs of boost? Possibly more since a belt is a far more efficient transfer of energy than fluid dynamics spinning a rotor, no?

The boost vs rpm will of course be very different, and also the net HP will also vary. But at some point on the charts they should cross--so comparing at that point, what are the differences?

 

[saagz87]

If it takes 80HP right off the crank to power the SC to produce X lbs of boost, why wouldn't it rob the same amount of energy via exhaust restriction used to spin the turbos enough to produce the same amount of work required to make the same X lbs of boost? Possibly more since a belt is a far more efficient transfer of energy than fluid dynamics spinning a rotor, no?

The boost vs rpm will of course be very different, and also the net HP will also vary. But at some point on the charts they should cross--so comparing at that point, what are the differences?

Nope just doesn’t work that way. Turbos do create an exhaust restriction, but as long as they are properly sized they are almost totally free HP spun off spent exhaust gas. Blower is hard on crank, front drive, takes away power via crank, and PD blowers in general are harder on lower end due to the torque curve they favor. Go spin a turbo blade, then spin a roots blower one revolution, you will understand better.

Go watch engine masters and you will see the comparison you’re looking for. Most here already understand blowers strong points and weaknesses so it doesn’t need to be covered again in regards to making HP. PD Blowers win down low, turbos win up top. General statement…

 

[2ndgen]

Nope just doesn’t work that way. Turbos do create an exhaust restriction, but as long as they are properly sized they are almost totally free HP spun off spent exhaust gas. Blower is hard on crank, front drive, takes away power via crank, and PD blowers in general are harder on lower end due to the torque curve they favor. Go spin a turbo blade, then spin a roots blower one revolution, you will understand better.

Go watch engine masters and you will see the comparison you’re looking for. Most here already understand blowers strong points and weaknesses so it doesn’t need to be covered again in regards to making HP. PD Blowers win down low, turbos win up top. General statement…

I'll have to look them up.
But just from a thermodynamics perspective, the amount of work to produce X lbs of boost is the same no matter the source of that energy. There's no such thing as free work in physics.

 

[saagz87]

You’re missing it though. Exhaust is coming out no matter what if it’s an ICE engine. You’re using the exhaust as the source of work to create positive pressure instead of turning something with mechanical force off the engine. As I said I don’t want to call it totally free HP, but based on my experience it’s close enough to free to call it that.

I took thermodynamics in engineering school. You’re 100% right but looking at it wrong. The exhaust coming out of an engine is capable of tremendous work but isn’t always taken advantage of. That’s all this is…

Blowers spin around 17k RPM. Turbo will spin over 90k RPM. Totally different scenarios because turbine wheels weigh nothing compared to the rotor set in a blower. You’re looking at it as you’re trying to spin a heavy thing to create boost off exhaust gas when turbos in fact are amazingly efficient.

There is a downside. Some of the guys don’t get any downforce out of zoomies or blow horns on the fastest twin turbo cars in the world. The blower and nitrous guys get measurable downforce out of their zoomies on the same cars. That’s only because the exhaust lost its energy in the turbo instead of getting wasted. Or used in this case haha

I'll have to look them up.
But just from a thermodynamics perspective, the amount of work to produce X lbs of boost is the same no matter the source of that energy. There's no such thing as free work in physics.

 

[2ndgen]

You’re missing it though. Exhaust is coming out no matter what if it’s an ICE engine. You’re using the exhaust as the source of work to create positive pressure instead of turning something with mechanical force off the engine. As I said I don’t want to call it totally free HP, but based on my experience it’s close enough to free to call it that.

Blowers spin around 17k RPM. Turbo will spin over 90k RPM. Totally different scenarios because turbine wheels weigh nothing compared to the rotor set in a blower. You’re looking at it as you’re trying to spin a heavy thing to create boost off exhaust gas when turbos in fact are amazingly efficient.

There is a downside. Some of the guys don’t get any downforce out of zoomies or blow horns on the fastest twin turbo cars in the world. The blower and nitrous guys get measurable downforce out of their zoomies on the same cars. That’s only because the exhaust lost its energy in the turbo instead of getting wasted. Or used in this case haha

So far in my reading it's apparent that twin screws pump less efficiently than turbo rotors--so there is definitely a big chunk of the equation right there.
I already know--(it's been dyno proven

) that you can lose a significant amount of power and torque just between exhaust manifolds vs long tube headers. In that particular test they lost 25 ft-lbs and lost 60-65 HP from the exhaust manifold alone--on an NA engine--so I imagine it's not unreasonable to presume a turbo might cost a similar loss--that's not nothing and would be nowhere near free.

Not sure if anyone has done a direct comparison with a turbo and a centrifugal SC. I think that would be the most telling--fewest variables--assuming the turbo and centrifugal are extremely close in design and size. I'll have to search and see.

It's all interesting--love learning new things.

 

[Speedy]

Lol you guys took my question down a rabbit hole but the question still stands. How is 1000hp from turbos or a supercharger any less load on the internal engine components?

 

[Blkout]

Lol you guys took my question down a rabbit hole but the question still stands. How is 1000hp from turbos or a supercharger any less load on the internal engine components?

It wouldn't be in my honest opinion. The difference between a PD blower and turbos is simply how the power curve looks with the PD blower coming in much sooner. That being said in regards to the conversation above, turbos are more efficient and they do have a lot more potential, especially for drag racing where you might not want as much torque to get the car out of the hole.

 

[2ndgen]

Of course Richard Holdener comes through for us with a great, thorough comparative demonstration. And yet another he did is also very informative.

I don't think it's fair to say that turbos have no parasitic loss--that's simply hand-waving. They of course cost power, just like a stock manifold costs power vs long tube headers--they are probably at least costing power within the same order of magnitude--but much less in total than a SC does, because the answer seems to be two-fold:
1) the actual pump mechanism of roots or twin-screw is less efficient at moving air/creating pressure than a turbo rotor
2) the turbo boost curve can come up much earlier in RPM whereas with any of the 3 SC styles it is always strictly linear with RPM

In another thread here someone brought up the fact that some people are also running compound boost setups--to get the best of both worlds. That would probably be a whole lot more variables to juggle.

 

[saagz87]

Lol you guys took my question down a rabbit hole but the question still stands. How is 1000hp from turbos or a supercharger any less load on the internal engine components?

Simple. Hellcat blower takes 80hp to spin in its efficiency range. Turbos take no direct power away from the crankshaft. Therefore anything with a hellcat blower making 1000hp is 80hp more stressed to make the same final number as that engine would have been using turbos. This can be seen with lower heat and boost numbers for the same output as a PD blower. Of course it’s not a perfect 80hp difference, but if you can’t grasp this I don’t know what to tell ya. How many turbo companies tell you how many hp it takes to spin them?

You guys have surly heard of the 33% energy rule with engines. If not it’s sort of an old hot rodders bible for making engines better.

33% of engine energy is put into the cooling system in form of heat

33% of engine energy goes straight out the exhaust valve into exhaust system

33% of the energy goes into pushing the piston down and rotating the crank. This is power we all care about, and what a blower steals from gentleman


This is why EVs are out to eat our lunch. ICE is terribly inefficient at putting the power where you want it, and that’s motion

 

[Spoolin]

Lol you guys took my question down a rabbit hole but the question still stands. How is 1000hp from turbos or a supercharger any less load on the internal engine components?

In simple terms......My take is that it takes less boost with a turbo to achieve the same HP as a SC. That's less pressure on the ringlands for instance, and the pulley load of the SC on the crank is also mitigated.

 

[Speedy]

You guys are missing the point I think. It's not about which is more efficient. The statement made was that somehow 1000hp form a turbo setup was less stress on the motor than 1000hp from a supercharger if I read it right. That doesn't add up to me.

 

[Spoolin]

You guys are missing the point I think. It's not about which is more efficient. The statement made was that somehow 1000hp form a turbo setup was less stress on the motor than 1000hp from a supercharger if I read it right. That doesn't add up to me.

Less boost would equate to less pressure on ringlands for one instance of less engine stress, wouldn't it?