[Sarna March]

I figure with cars mostly using invidual coils for each plug that are, ostensibly, fed by the car's 12-14.4V power, can you just supply a higher primary current to the coils for greater voltage across the spark plug gap?

If the coils are switched in such a way that the primary voltage doesn't directly touch the car's electronics, couldn't you just boost that voltage to the coils to boost output?

Or as a more work-intensive idea, make your own coils by winding them with 2-10 times as much ratio between primary and secondary wire wraps.

I know that there is a point of diminishing returns with more spark energy. But, why not find it? It would be simple to increase the input voltage if it is possible to isolate that from the car's electronics. You could wire the existing ignition timing outputs on each cylinder to instead trigger a transistorized switch that fed the coils with whatever voltage you like, instead.

I have occasionally looked at the drag racing cars with their arc-welder-level magnetos supplying power to the plugs, and cast envying eyes on that power output, and wondered how one could ignite every last molecule in the combustion chambers in a similar fashion. How can you get super-high-spark-energy without resorting to magnetos? Research shows there is some advantage to higher spark energy, if only to make it less likely to get a misfire/mis-spark in a cylinder.

I know that he slight delay in adding yet another electronic switch between the car's brains and the spark coil would need some compensation by one's timing. Are the coils always powered, and then suddenly shut off for each spark, or are they suddenly provided voltage then have the voltage cut as suddenly to provide the delta V needed to provide spark energy?

More spark never caused less power. But how to have more spark, preferably in duration AND intensity? A spark that went on from ignition to exhaust valve opening could not hurt power output, like the old Mallory capacitive-discharge systems, but exaggerated in its event duration.

 

[GreenMachine15]

 

[2fast4u]

Interesting, BUT, many of us are running plugs that as you go up in boost require a tighter gap...more current would likely lead to premature failure of the ground strap, .028 is not a big gap to start, and when you go smaller, it compounds the factors that could affect it. I can't remember where, but a few have tried higher output coilpacks, most if not all have said no gain, a few said they actually did not perform as well as stock.

 

[Rockster]

I figure with cars mostly using invidual coils for each plug that are, ostensibly, fed by the car's 12-14.4V power, can you just supply a higher primary current to the coils for greater voltage across the spark plug gap?

If the coils are switched in such a way that the primary voltage doesn't directly touch the car's electronics, couldn't you just boost that voltage to the coils to boost output?

Or as a more work-intensive idea, make your own coils by winding them with 2-10 times as much ratio between primary and secondary wire wraps.

I know that there is a point of diminishing returns with more spark energy. But, why not find it? It would be simple to increase the input voltage if it is possible to isolate that from the car's electronics. You could wire the existing ignition timing outputs on each cylinder to instead trigger a transistorized switch that fed the coils with whatever voltage you like, instead.

I have occasionally looked at the drag racing cars with their arc-welder-level magnetos supplying power to the plugs, and cast envying eyes on that power output, and wondered how one could ignite every last molecule in the combustion chambers in a similar fashion. How can you get super-high-spark-energy without resorting to magnetos? Research shows there is some advantage to higher spark energy, if only to make it less likely to get a misfire/mis-spark in a cylinder.

I know that he slight delay in adding yet another electronic switch between the car's brains and the spark coil would need some compensation by one's timing. Are the coils always powered, and then suddenly shut off for each spark, or are they suddenly provided voltage then have the voltage cut as suddenly to provide the delta V needed to provide spark energy?

More spark never caused less power. But how to have more spark, preferably in duration AND intensity? A spark that went on from ignition to exhaust valve opening could not hurt power output, like the old Mallory capacitive-discharge systems, but exaggerated in its event duration.

Maybe what you think is possible is possible.

But if it is it is a solution looking for a problem. There is no issue with spark now. Coils produce considerable voltage from the ~12V they are powered with.

And have to mention it is not the presence of power that generates the spark, though certainly it is necessary. It is the cutting of power that causes the electrical field to collapse and in doing so generate the voltage that causes the spark at the plug.

There could be a limit to how much bigger that is longer the coil could be and how much more windings there could be, before the extra length and diameter of the winding affects the speed at which the coil gets charged up -- so to speak -- with power from the battery, then at what speed the electrical field collapses. IOWs there could be a diminishing return. More coil, more windings, may not scale up the voltage produced by the coil.

There is also the effect more spark, a longer duration spark, would have on the life of the plugs.

 

[baabootoo]

If it ain't broke..............

 

[baabootoo]

Maybe what you think is possible is possible.

But if it is it is a solution looking for a problem. There is no issue with spark now. Coils produce considerable voltage from the ~12V they are powered with.

And have to mention it is not the presence of power that generates the spark, though certainly it is necessary. It is the cutting of power that causes the electrical field to collapse and in doing so generate the voltage that causes the spark at the plug.

There could be a limit to how much bigger that is longer the coil could be and how much more windings there could be, before the extra length and diameter of the winding affects the speed at which the coil gets charged up -- so to speak -- with power from the battery, then at what speed the electrical field collapses. IOWs there could be a diminishing return. More coil, more windings, may not scale up the voltage produced by the coil.

There is also the effect more spark, a longer duration spark, would have on the life of the plugs.

Great minds.......... 😁

 

[Sarna March]

this is what got me thinking. Is there more power available?

 

[SuperSound]

The common problem with all "dyno gains" from a company trying to sell you something, did they disconnect the power after the first run or before the first run.

The PCM adjusts over the long term. So usually these companies do not perform a clean 1st test. The 1st test is as the car came into the shop. Then before they install their parts, they disconnect the battery. PCM goes back to default tune and magically power is found. Then after a few weeks, that power is no where to be found. Not saying this happened, but this is why I don't trust any before and after dynos with gains under ~10% (dynos are not 100% accurate run to run, this is part of the reasons SAE ratings exist).

 

[SickToo]

Ethanol is harder to light than gasoline but barely

Are you considering making the switch or are you gonna stay with ethanol?

Nitro is hard to light

If you are planning to run nitro the stock ignition system will prove itself adequate

 

[Sarna March]

The common problem with all "dyno gains" from a company trying to sell you something, did they disconnect the power after the first run or before the first run.

The PCM adjusts over the long term. So usually these companies do not perform a clean 1st test. The 1st test is as the car came into the shop. Then before they install their parts, they disconnect the battery. PCM goes back to default tune and magically power is found. Then after a few weeks, that power is no where to be found. Not saying this happened, but this is why I don't trust any before and after dynos with gains under ~10% (dynos are not 100% accurate run to run, this is part of the reasons SAE ratings exist).

Interesting points. Long-term testing is more of a benchmark than one-shot testing then.

 

[Sarna March]

Ethanol is harder to light than gasoline but barely

Are you considering making the switch or are you gonna stay with ethanol?

Nitro is hard to light

If you are planning to run nitro the stock ignition system will prove itself adequate

This is all in theory and research for discussion. Occasionally, you run into someone who says, "Yup, I tried that and..."
It is also a kind of fishing expedition, too, not like the obnoxious preteen braying in the electric "musclecar" thread, I look for input, not just agreement, though some of the responses are not in agreement with the idea, they reflect some people's many years of experience. This can not be discounted.

Ideas that can survive the "hazing" of the very-experienced can occasionally be put into test form.

I wonder if there is more room for even more excessive spark mJ energy in Top Fuel, now that you mention it. The deluge of fuel dumped into a fuel car's cylinder is just amazing. I know their magnetos are powerful, but, hey, why not even MORE overkill? 44 amps per spark plug is truly phenomenal. I don't know if that is at the rated voltage or the primary voltage.

I am assuming that that is the primary voltage, because otherwise 2200kW of power is coming from each spark plug.
But, that massive deluge of fuel shows why "water" heads would not only be unnecessary, but unwelcome.

 

[SickToo]

I don’t even know how many nozzles they are running now, much less what size they are

20 years ago I was in Ralph Gorr’s garage flowing a system for a fuel car Ken Veney was tuning and it blew me away then. The goal was the same then that it is now - to fill every bit of the chamber with fuel and somehow light it : )

*you think outside the box. That’s a good thing! Rare too

 

[Unholy707]

The box is a trapezoid

 

[Xylander]

Boosted cars actually prefer a cooler spark, not a hotter one. I guess I don't understand why you want to increase the voltage? You have to remember that the combustion chamber of a FI car is a much different place than a NA car. To drive this point home, let's look at diesels:

Diesels are very high compression engines. They don't have spark plugs as the glow plugs provide some heat, but the primary source of the ignition during the ignition stroke is caused by the extreme compression.

Similar to diesels, FI engines have a greatly compressed air and fuel mass in the combustion chamber prior to ignition. Although it won't ignite on its own like a diesel, it does require spark plugs that burn cooler and high octane fuel to prevent predetonation. Hotter spark plugs will cause cylinder misfires as they will allow for ignition prior to TDC. If plugs are way out of spec in terms of temp rating, they can predetonate and damage "dumb" engines. Cars with advanced VVT systems like what's in the Ford modular engines can compensate for this and allow the engine to still function in its safety mode, but I don't believe Dodge's variable cam timing is as advanced, and someone might be playing with a hand grenade if they put in some very hot plugs.

 

[SickToo]

You mean a colder plug? I have never studied spark temperatures but know that the higher the pressure the harder it is for the current to jump the gap. Which is why we close it. Has nothing to do with temperature rating of plug. You want the plug to be self cleaning but not so hot that it causes pre ignition.

These coils they are selling (and the fat gap) might not be the way to go for anything blown. But like a MSD if they really do increase torque in the middle of the rpm range they will benefit guys with my current set up. The naturally aspirated guys running a converter. Might help my turd get out of the 1.6’s

 

[Sarna March]

I don’t even know how many nozzles they are running now, much less what size they are

20 years ago I was in Ralph Gorr’s garage flowing a system for a fuel car Ken Veney was tuning and it blew me away then. The goal was the same then that it is now - to fill every bit of the chamber with fuel and somehow light it : )

*you think outside the box. That’s a good thing! Rare too

I know they inject in the hat, which obviously adds chemical intercooling to the compressed charge, but also, they dump more fuel in below the hat somewhere before the intake valve.

They (some fuel team) tried triple spark plugs at one point, with one just below the exhaust valve, but they didn't gain enough benefit to continue using three magnetos.

Consistency is the primary aim when building engines. You want a predictable benefit from a modification, even if the benefit isn't as great as you wanted. A fuel motor that gives you 3-second passes one week then puts a 10' crater in the track the next week may sell more tickets, but, most fuel teams aren't going to be interested in that.

 

[Sarna March]

Boosted cars actually prefer a cooler spark, not a hotter one. I guess I don't understand why you want to increase the voltage?

As someone mentioned above, it isn't the spark that is cooler, but the heat range of the plug. more contact between center electrode and insulator-to-body interface to the (cooler) head itself gives that.

But, there is no upper limit to how much energy you can use in your spark, except ionizing the entire car and all the cylinders at once.

 

[SickToo]

Consistent and fuel don’t belong in the same sentence

Run to run, a top fuel crew chief is only making adjustments to try to make it run the same as it did when it hauled ass. Trying to compensate for change in weather or track. That’s it. And that’s hard. Cuz the stuff is unpredictable

 

[Sarna March]

try to make it run the same as it did when it hauled ass.

aka consistency.

My suggestion for Top Fuel is far-more-aggressive control of the crankshaft torsional harmonics. When they used to drown the engine in oil, they didn't have engines blowing up so often. The torsional harmonics were limited to some extent by six gallons of oil, (yes, six gallons) evidently, because as soon as they went to dry sumps to limit the oil-downs of the track, the engines started exploding on the regular.

The thousands of horsepower enabled the crank to wade through all that oil, not a practical solution for everyday driving.

The Unseen Enemy of the Top Fuel cranks is torsional harmonics, and they rely entirely on the Gilmer belt to dampen those. I advise one damper on each end of the crank, and if they can fit one, somehow get one in the middle, also. Yes, the crank will still be twisted back and forth, BUT, it will not be able to develop the positive-feedback-loop of torsional harmonics which increase and build.

 

[SickToo]

How many hits they get outta a crank now?