SRT Hellcat Forum banner

They Live! All-New Dodge Charger, Challenger Coming With Hemi V-8s

8328 152
Article from today...

  • Hey Everyone! Enter your ride HERE to be a part of this months Ride of the Month Challenge!
101 - 120 of 153 Posts

· Registered
'23 C8 3LT Convertible Z51
Joined
·
3,940 Posts
I did not realize that. I was under the impression that congress allows or restricts what regulations the EPA can put into practice. Is that not correct? Shouldn't congress be able to tell the EPA that they have to rewrite new regulations far less restrictive for American auto makers? I could be way off on that but that was my understanding of how the EPA works. Like several have mentioned on this thread the ideal result as the regulations stand now is that no one or VERY few people buy these new EVs and the automakers take an absolute bath on them. Then, the U.S. Government would be forced to change the rules or risk seeing the American automakers fall into bankruptcy, and as a result have to lay off tens of thousands of employees directly which will in turn eliminate 100s of thousands of jobs both upstream and downstream in the industry. If that happens then whomever is in office from the senate to congress to the president can kiss their political lives goodbye!
I'm also not intimately familiar with the inner workings of the EPA. However, I know for certain that they're controlled by the executive branch and the EPA director is an appointed position. Of course they have to operate within the bounds of the law, but Congress doesn't mandate anything to them except their budget. This is why the Supreme Court and other lower Federal courts routinely strike down certain policies as they are one of the co-equal branches of government whose responsibility is judicial oversight. This played out earlier this year when they struck down the EPA's desire to further regulate the power plant industry.

The prime issue at hand with the CAFE regulations is that these were passed in 2016, updated in 2019, rescinded under Trump, and reinstated under Biden on day 1 in 2021. If the courts were going to strike anything down, they'd have done it back in 2019 when they updated the regulations.

I think in a few years (maybe sooner as manufacturers start pushing new EV models), the whole adoption of EVs is going to move ahead. If you look at the coming landscape, there's hordes of under $30,000 EVs coming. They are nothing special... 150ish power with 225ish miles of range for the budget EVs. I do think you're going to see a huge shift away from the luxury EV market... as those are almost all that are being made right now... the $50k+ segment. Companies like Tesla are going to truly need to adapt or get swallowed up if they want to remain relevant. This year, Tesla is slated to be overthrown by VW in the EV sales market. If things don't change, Ford will surpass Tesla in 2024-2025 and GM and Toyota soon thereafter.

Right now, the prime arguments against EVs are baseline high cost and charge availability (limited charging stations, inability of the grid to cope). In the very near future, the cost on the economy EVs will be in line with current economy small-midsize sedans. The average car buyer is dumb and will just buy the cheap car without any thought on how they'll charge it. Once those el cheapo EVs start flooding the roads, those currently mostly unused Charge America chargers will start getting full and then the reality will start to creep in for anyone who doesn't have access to a home charger. At that point, we'll see how the market adapts. In the next 2-3 years, it'll be a boon for the budget EV models, but it may very well dry up.

I think you'll see a lot of micro market shifts away from things like performance EVs and ultra lux EVs. There will always be some of them around, but most performance drivers don't want a 5,000lb car, regardless how fast it is in a straight line. In my mind, the EV revolution will look a lot like the car market in the early to mid '80s where everything ends up looking the same and having the same ho-hum non-exciting driving experience. Times change and so will the markets, but at least in the next 5 years, I think we're about to go through the early 80s again as manufacturers focus on marketability and profits over innovation.
 

· Premium Member
.2020 HCNBM6. ...2022 RENB...
Joined
·
3,393 Posts
Did anyone read this?


Please let me know if anyone needs me to explain it. I'm not from the government, but I am here to help! :)
 

· Registered
99 Viper GTS Black on Connolly Cognac Stripe Delete 1OF77
Joined
·
132 Posts
Well, the car fans out here would love nothing more than to see a 1970 Charger Daytona remade as a 2023 with a Hellcat engine in it... but the government won't allow a car like that to ever be made again... soooooo...
1969 Charger Daytona. 1970 was the superbird
 

· Registered
2019 Redeye ,69 340 4spd Barracuda, 73 340 cuda' 727, 73 318 Dart
Joined
·
83 Posts
I did not realize that. I was under the impression that congress allows or restricts what regulations the EPA can put into practice. Is that not correct? Shouldn't congress be able to tell the EPA that they have to rewrite new regulations far less restrictive for American auto makers? I could be way off on that but that was my understanding of how the EPA works. Like several have mentioned on this thread the ideal result as the regulations stand now is that no one or VERY few people buy these new EVs and the automakers take an absolute bath on them. Then, the U.S. Government would be forced to change the rules or risk seeing the American automakers fall into bankruptcy, and as a result have to lay off tens of thousands of employees directly which will in turn eliminate 100s of thousands of jobs both upstream and downstream in the industry. If that happens then whomever is in office from the senate to congress to the president can kiss their political lives goodbye!
Your wrong! The Supremes just handed the EPA their ass in West Virginia VS EPA. They " struck a blow against unbridled unaccountable bureaucratic power'. It's a major victory they ruled that the EPA is there to in force environmental
laws that congress has written. They are not in place to make their own laws. THANK GOD!
 

· Premium Member
.2020 HCNBM6. ...2022 RENB...
Joined
·
3,393 Posts
Your wrong! The Supremes just handed the EPA their ass in West Virginia VS EPA. They " struck a blow against unbridled unaccountable bureaucratic power'. It's a major victory they ruled that the EPA is there to in force environmental
laws that congress has written. They are not in place to make their own laws. THANK GOD!
Thank you. I hope others are listening. I had to post the damn link twice already! :)
 

· Registered
'23 C8 3LT Convertible Z51
Joined
·
3,940 Posts
Your wrong! The Supremes just handed the EPA their ass in West Virginia VS EPA. They " struck a blow against unbridled unaccountable bureaucratic power'. It's a major victory they ruled that the EPA is there to in force environmental
laws that congress has written. They are not in place to make their own laws. THANK GOD!
That was a very narrow ruling concerning power plant regulation. The EPA doesn't make laws, they make regulations.
 

· Registered
'23 C8 3LT Convertible Z51
Joined
·
3,940 Posts
Thank you. I hope others are listening. I had to post the damn link twice already! :)
But your post doesn't apply in any way whatsoever to the auto emissions regulations. The government has been regulating vehicle emissions since the 70s when they outlawed leaded fuel and began mandating EGR equipment. There's just about a 0% chance of any court overturning the EPA on emissions regulations, as there's 50 years of precedent at this point.
 

· Registered
2019 Redeye ,69 340 4spd Barracuda, 73 340 cuda' 727, 73 318 Dart
Joined
·
83 Posts
Thank you. I hope others are listening. I had to post the damn link twice already! :)
Thank you. I hope others are listening. I had to post the damn link twice already! :)
People do need to pay attention, that ruling came out about 5 weeks ago.
It is big and has major ramifications. Let's see where it takes us.
 

· Registered
2022 SS, 2020 1320, 2019 HC-Sold, 1967 Camero SS, 1971 Charger Superbee
Joined
·
271 Posts
The omnipotent power of the EPA ain't what it used to be.
I read they (EPA) were courting Fauci to come head up the organization due to his success with imposing Covid vaccines ect on the human race, hence his decision to "retire" from health.
 

· Registered
2019 Challenger Hellcat Redeye Widebody
Joined
·
293 Posts
This is so you guys can see where I was getting my incorrect understanding of who governs the EPA. From the EPA's own website:
"EPA is called a regulatory agency because Congress authorizes us to write regulations that explain the technical, operational, and legal details necessary to implement laws. Regulations are mandatory requirements that can apply to individuals, businesses, state or local governments, non-profit institutions, or others."
Or here where it talks about how a regulatory law is created:
.
Reading thru this one would get the impression that congress is the one that essentially tells the EPA what to do and then the EPA makes the regulations which are then sent thru both houses and if it passes the President signs it into law. It is also interesting to note that the President can roll back anything he wants essentially if his party controls the house and senate. Trump was able to roll back all of the CAFE stuff as well as the strict laws regarding domestic oil and gas production within the 1st year of his term.
Thanks to all that helped educate me on this.
 

· Premium Member
.2020 HCNBM6. ...2022 RENB...
Joined
·
3,393 Posts
But your post doesn't apply in any way whatsoever to the auto emissions regulations. The government has been regulating vehicle emissions since the 70s when they outlawed leaded fuel and began mandating EGR equipment. There's just about a 0% chance of any court overturning the EPA on emissions regulations, as there's 50 years of precedent at this point.
You promised to ignore me.
 

· Premium Member
.2020 HCNBM6. ...2022 RENB...
Joined
·
3,393 Posts
Did anyone read this?


Please let me know if anyone needs me to explain it. I'm not from the government, but I am here to help! :)
For those that didn't read the article, from CNN no less:

"For a century, the federal government has functioned on the assumption that Congress can broadly delegate regulatory power to executive branch agencies. Today's ruling opens the door to endless challenges to those delegations -- on everything from climate change to food safety standards -- on the ground that Congress wasn't specific enough in giving the agency the power to regulate such 'major' issues," Vladeck said.
 

· Registered
'23 C8 3LT Convertible Z51
Joined
·
3,940 Posts
This is so you guys can see where I was getting my incorrect understanding of who governs the EPA. From the EPA's own website:
"EPA is called a regulatory agency because Congress authorizes us to write regulations that explain the technical, operational, and legal details necessary to implement laws. Regulations are mandatory requirements that can apply to individuals, businesses, state or local governments, non-profit institutions, or others."
Or here where it talks about how a regulatory law is created:
.
Reading thru this one would get the impression that congress is the one that essentially tells the EPA what to do and then the EPA makes the regulations which are then sent thru both houses and if it passes the President signs it into law. It is also interesting to note that the President can roll back anything he wants essentially if his party controls the house and senate. Trump was able to roll back all of the CAFE stuff as well as the strict laws regarding domestic oil and gas production within the 1st year of his term.
Thanks to all that helped educate me on this.
The President can roll back any regulation that falls underneath an executive agency. Congress writes the laws, and the executive agencies enforce them. To generally understand how agencies work, just think of the agencies as the police, and they enforce the law passed by the legislature (Congress). The police answer to the mayor (President), but they're all governed by the court system.
 

· Banned
Joined
·
334 Posts
The President can roll back any regulation that falls underneath an executive agency. Congress writes the laws, and the executive agencies enforce them. To generally understand how agencies work, just think of the agencies as the police, and they enforce the law passed by the legislature (Congress). The police answer to the mayor (President), but they're all governed by the court system.
yup its the supreme court that makes the final ruling and reins in presidents that think the constitution doesn't apply to them
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
1,589 Posts
CAFE standards were written by the EPA and NHTSA, if emissions can be considered a safety issue then the EPA's input is moot and NHTSA can supersede the Supreme Courts ruling.

Have to take issue with some of your statements Bhdau1:
Font Terrestrial plant Screenshot Document Number


1. That's an opinion, this forum is not a good indicator of the publics general desires. Many still prefer combustion but measure today against 5 years ago and I think you will have seen a massive uptick in interest in EV. I may want to believe the same but I can't see "a VERY small percentage" unless you think 20% is small.

2. So? Our government doesn't make plans because they are logical.

3. Lithium mainly comes from China, Central and South America, and Australia; the Aussies my have restrictions but the others don't give a damn about the environment (well, maybe Costa Rica but I don't think they mine there).

4. Partly true, gas stations will start to convert to charging stations with gas option, probably have a decade before gas becomes a special trip to an out of the way location. Used car market for ICE is going to grow IMO for precisely the reason you stated in 1, going to be holdouts and people who live off the grid that will still use ICE and the rebuild market is going gang busters. I agree that the Jiffy Lubes and Meinike's may end up going away but the small shops should have business indefinitely. If you're driving a 70' Cuda someone has to be able to work on it if you can't.

5. agree, looking at severely diminished values for EV's in the future resale market, now they are so new the bad battery issue hasn't been screamed about on the news channels, it's coming. Imagine buying a $120K Tesla and 6 years later being offered $16K because the whole battery pack will have to be replaced.

6. Not yet

7. And same could be said for any goods being imported from Europe, you only know it's too expensive if they stop buying the products, my HC went up 45% since 2015 (for a new similar) and Dodge hasn't had issues selling them, maybe if they start tacking on $5K fuel surcharges, $6K gas guzzler tax, a $2,500 EPA environmental refurbishment fee...Shipping costs are killing everyone.

8. Once again, so? Do you think our government is actually concerned with what cars Americans can afford to buy? Capitalism will decide who can afford one, congressmen/women don't give a damn about who can afford a car unless they are grandstanding.

9. Millions of lost jobs, and I'm guessing the farriers union is still bent about the horseless carriage? Been to Blockbuster lately? Whole industries come and go, this is not something unique to the auto industry.
Zero effect, you think the emissions from the ICE aren't real? I'd say we are shifting from air pollution to landfills full of toxic junk second only to nuclear waste in "garbage that will always be toxic". Los Angles could probably benefit greatly if half the cars went to EV, of course they'd have no power as everyone is trying to charge their cars...at least the haze would clear up some.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
1,589 Posts
EV or no, don't see a V8 making 54.5 mpg even if they are able to stuff a EV assist in there. So if they built 5 Challengers that make 54.5 mpg and one HC that makes 18 mpg does that make the average fuel economy 48.4 mpg? (54.5x5+18/6)? They would have to exceed 54.5 mpg in order to come in compliance with less efficient engines. Those 5 Challengers would have to make 60 mpg to average the HC out at 54.5 mpg. Change the scale and 100 challengers only need to make 55 mpg to average out the HC at 54.5. They can bring back the V8 in that respect except for Stellantis wanting to kill off the ICE completely and go all EV, to me that's the real problem, Dodge can work around CAFE standards by making a ton of EV's.

Eye Rectangle Water Violet Font
 

· Registered
Joined
·
320 Posts
Here
EV or no, don't see a V8 making 54.5 mpg even if they are able to stuff a EV assist in there. So if they built 5 Challengers that make 54.5 mpg and one HC that makes 18 mpg does that make the average fuel economy 48.4 mpg? (54.5x5+18/6)? They would have to exceed 54.5 mpg in order to come in compliance with less efficient engines. Those 5 Challengers would have to make 60 mpg to average the HC out at 54.5 mpg. Change the scale and 100 challengers only need to make 55 mpg to average out the HC at 54.5. They can bring back the V8 in that respect except for Stellantis wanting to kill off the ICE completely and go all EV, to me that's the real problem, Dodge can work around CAFE standards by making a ton of EV's.

View attachment 600540
a crazy and revolutionary idea…

What if politicians wouldn’t have a say on what the market wants or not? And instead of telling what should be the average MPG of a vehicle or fleet it’s the end customer who says what they’ll want or not willing to buy?

See? Problem is that this fake and government induced demand for EV vehicles is just that a fake induced demand for something that people really don’t want nor care.

This whole thing about climate and carbon offset is just political rhetoric and talking points designed for you to vote for them…

Has anyone even bothered to ask what happens to the money that some self righteous fools pay for carbon offset tax/credit when they rent a car? Like if by you paying Avis, National, Hertz $2 or $3 bucks per rental is destined somehow to take away (magically) that nasty carbon that is gonna be the doomsday of human kind…?

just my 2 cents…

Cheers
 

· Registered
'23 C8 3LT Convertible Z51
Joined
·
3,940 Posts
CAFE?? Well the first letter stands for communism. Its just another big brother government program that they have no constitutionally given right to implement. Are you going to justify it when they make you pull your gas furnace, gas range, and gas hot water heater out of your home? When they tell you you can no longer by a gas lawn mower, chain saw, weed wacker, atv, motorcyle, you CELL PHONE CHARGER?? Because if there going to actually ban something thats what they will ban because nobody NEEDS a motorcyle or atv or cell phone. Funny thing too is gas and diesel powered vehicles have to pass government fuel economy standards. Ev's they can post any bs numbers they want when it comes to cost, range and the REAL pollution they create. Lets see cafe standards for electrics that factor in the pollution they create charging. The pollution they create disposing of batterys! Lets make them run a real world road course with hills (some that even have to be driven UP:D. Lets see the extra pollution they create when they have to be charged every couple hours because your actually using a pickup like a pickup!! Or doing 10 second passes on the track. CAFE. California is _______up everthing. Maybe like the irs they can hire a bunch of tax payer funded autitors that can come into your home without a warrant to check to see if you have evil gasoline in your garage. Good thing is we are going to have a big reset real soon and it wont be the breaker on your tesla charger!!
The reality of that reset is a bit different than you think. Hypothetically, if the current regime loses everything and the people vote them all out and replace them with small government activists, it won't change anything with vehicle manufacturers in the short term. This damage is already done. It'll be a minimum of 6-8 years before they retool and go back to full ICE production with minimal, if any, CAFE standards. It takes years to design a new vehicle, tool the factories, negotiate labor contracts with unions, arrange materials and delivery logistics plans. Given that by the time this grand reset comes at its earliest, there will have been 4 years of looming mandates and 4-6 years of factory planning already completed.

Thus, if you go back in automotive history, what we're getting ready to go through is the mid-late '70s up through the early '80s all over again. Even though the gas crisis pretty much ended by the late 70s/early 80s, manufacturers kept building anemic low power econo-boxes because they thought the public didn't want muscle cars anymore... after all, it had been close to 20 years since mainstream performance cars were neutered. I think you'll see the same thing again, as auto manufacturers are really not very big risk takers. So, from 2025-2030, at least, the roads are going to be packed with < 300hp EVs and everything is going to start looking the same until the industry marks a long-term trend of reduced regulation. Kindly go take a look at just how many sub-200hp EVs the likes of Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Chevrolet, and Ford are planning to launch by 2026. IIRC, it's some 30 models.
 
101 - 120 of 153 Posts
Top