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I suspect those f150 lightenings are huge adm. They are here in town. Chevy Silverado etrucks are 50+ including adm.

I bet you can't actually drive one away and have it in the driveway for less than 50+

Prove me wrong......
 

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All these unreasonable EPA / CAFE minimum mpg standards do is put American automakers at a huge disadvantage and cost the public a lot more money. It will do exactly jack sh*t to improve the environment. Such a load of crap. Unless you are making the remaining 95% of the world do the same thing then we have achieved NOTHING. Everyone else will continue to depend on cheap and reliable fossil fuels while the American public is essentially forced to buy an electric car that virtually no one wants. We need to vote these morons out of office and get back to domestic oil and gas production and LET THE MARKET DICTATE WHAT CARS ARE MADE! Biden and his administration is screwing us just about every way possible.
Ah but much of it IS global by default. Many manufacturers are going 100% EV (Cadillac, Volvo, etc.) so it doesn't matter what country you're in. More will follow. The auto industry doesnt revolve only around the US…
 

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I suspect those f150 lightenings are huge adm. They are here in town. Chevy Silverado etrucks are 50+ including adm.

I bet you can't actually drive one away and have it in the driveway for less than 50+

Prove me wrong......
Saw one with 157 miles on it at the dealer only wholesale auction last wk, $106k. Wonder what they’ll mark it up to.
 

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I suspect those f150 lightenings are huge adm. They are here in town. Chevy Silverado etrucks are 50+ including adm.

I bet you can't actually drive one away and have it in the driveway for less than 50+

Prove me wrong......
Sure, they'll have ADMs if you get one that's unclaimed on a dealership lot. However, Ford released a press release and a dealer notice last month stating that adding ADMs to sold orders is not permitted, and that any dealership caught doing it can also be made to forfeit any and all future factory build allocations. Chevy has a similar deal on their sold order cars, with the exception of the 2023 Z06s. The Z06 also comes with a EULA that prevents owners from reselling the car for 2 years... so no flipping :)

On a wholly unrelated note, the Cadillac Lyriq also will have an optional NDA buyers can sign. If they choose to do so, they can save a few thousand dollars by signing an agreement that prevents them from posting any content about the car on social media. Kind of odd... as most manufacturers want people to spread the news about their cars... unless they think it might be a turd...
 

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CAFE standards were written by the EPA and NHTSA, if emissions can be considered a safety issue then the EPA's input is moot and NHTSA can supersede the Supreme Courts ruling.

Have to take issue with some of your statements Bhdau1:
View attachment 600526

1. That's an opinion, this forum is not a good indicator of the publics general desires. Many still prefer combustion but measure today against 5 years ago and I think you will have seen a massive uptick in interest in EV. I may want to believe the same but I can't see "a VERY small percentage" unless you think 20% is small.

2. So? Our government doesn't make plans because they are logical.

3. Lithium mainly comes from China, Central and South America, and Australia; the Aussies my have restrictions but the others don't give a damn about the environment (well, maybe Costa Rica but I don't think they mine there).

4. Partly true, gas stations will start to convert to charging stations with gas option, probably have a decade before gas becomes a special trip to an out of the way location. Used car market for ICE is going to grow IMO for precisely the reason you stated in 1, going to be holdouts and people who live off the grid that will still use ICE and the rebuild market is going gang busters. I agree that the Jiffy Lubes and Meinike's may end up going away but the small shops should have business indefinitely. If you're driving a 70' Cuda someone has to be able to work on it if you can't.

5. agree, looking at severely diminished values for EV's in the future resale market, now they are so new the bad battery issue hasn't been screamed about on the news channels, it's coming. Imagine buying a $120K Tesla and 6 years later being offered $16K because the whole battery pack will have to be replaced.

6. Not yet

7. And same could be said for any goods being imported from Europe, you only know it's too expensive if they stop buying the products, my HC went up 45% since 2015 (for a new similar) and Dodge hasn't had issues selling them, maybe if they start tacking on $5K fuel surcharges, $6K gas guzzler tax, a $2,500 EPA environmental refurbishment fee...Shipping costs are killing everyone.

8. Once again, so? Do you think our government is actually concerned with what cars Americans can afford to buy? Capitalism will decide who can afford one, congressmen/women don't give a damn about who can afford a car unless they are grandstanding.

9. Millions of lost jobs, and I'm guessing the farriers union is still bent about the horseless carriage? Been to Blockbuster lately? Whole industries come and go, this is not something unique to the auto industry.
Zero effect, you think the emissions from the ICE aren't real? I'd say we are shifting from air pollution to landfills full of toxic junk second only to nuclear waste in "garbage that will always be toxic". Los Angles could probably benefit greatly if half the cars went to EV, of course they'd have no power as everyone is trying to charge their cars...at least the haze would clear up some.
You said you take issue with some of the opinions (educated opinions based off of the world i live in and predicting outcomes based off of history and theory) I stated but I dont really see any counter arguments made by you that make anything I said invalid.
1. Going off of polling today the percentage of Americans with a strong interest in or planning to buy an EV within the next few years is extremely low. And planning to buy an EV and actually forking over the money to buy one is two different things. I don't know a single person that owns an EV or plans on buying one. Granted, I own a collectible, used, and antique gun store so the people I have contact with tend to be conservative.
2. They should. That's part of the problem.
3. I said that lithium mining destroys the environment, which it does. The way it has to be mined is particularly invasive. Whether it happens in the U.S. or across the world it is still destructive.
4. Again there is no denying the effect it will have on gas stations and everyone involved with them. And just like Tesla, Rivian, and all if the other EV manufacturers, they have to be serviced by the manufacturer as they are security encoded to keep everyone else out. Say goodbye to more 90% of the auto repair business in any model where EVs are main form of transportation.
5. We agree
6. We are very far away from this technology at this point. Yet they are trying to force it on the public.
7. I don't care about foreign goods and their trade value. I care about how American goods can compete in the world economy. These ridiculous fuel costs that are self imposed by our own government not only affects the ability of some to fill up their cars gas tank but adds considerable cost to the manufacture and transportation of goods. It puts us at a huge disadvantage to countries who remain using fossil fuels which is damn neR the entire rest of the developed world!
8. I'm not sure what your argument is here against the statement I made. Apparently our government IS concerned with what cars we buy because they are trying to legislate their way into making us buy electric cars. My point is if they are successful in doing so what are they going to do for those that can't afford them? Tell them they have to walk or ride a bike instead of driving their ice powered car?
9. This one seems pretty easy to understand. We are but one tiny landmass in the world. We already had more restrictions on fossil fuel emissions than 98% of the world. The entire U.S. changing to EVs to the last man will have no measurable effect on stopping pollution if the rest of the world doesn't do the same thing. And that will never happen! Not in 100 years or 1000. It is a freaking pipe dream. Developing better emissions equipment that will reduce air pollution while keeping cheap fossil fuels is a far better plan than going electric. I could list 1000 reasons why but most of them are common sense and/or self-evident.
 

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You said you take issue with some of the opinions (educated opinions based off of the world i live in and predicting outcomes based off of history and theory) I stated but I dont really see any counter arguments made by you that make anything I said invalid.
1. Going off of polling today the percentage of Americans with a strong interest in or planning to buy an EV within the next few years is extremely low. And planning to buy an EV and actually forking over the money to buy one is two different things. I don't know a single person that owns an EV or plans on buying one. Granted, I own a collectible, used, and antique gun store so the people I have contact with tend to be conservative.
2. They should. That's part of the problem.
3. I said that lithium mining destroys the environment, which it does. The way it has to be mined is particularly invasive. Whether it happens in the U.S. or across the world it is still destructive.
4. Again there is no denying the effect it will have on gas stations and everyone involved with them. And just like Tesla, Rivian, and all if the other EV manufacturers, they have to be serviced by the manufacturer as they are security encoded to keep everyone else out. Say goodbye to more 90% of the auto repair business in any model where EVs are main form of transportation.
5. We agree
6. We are very far away from this technology at this point. Yet they are trying to force it on the public.
7. I don't care about foreign goods and their trade value. I care about how American goods can compete in the world economy. These ridiculous fuel costs that are self imposed by our own government not only affects the ability of some to fill up their cars gas tank but adds considerable cost to the manufacture and transportation of goods. It puts us at a huge disadvantage to countries who remain using fossil fuels which is damn neR the entire rest of the developed world!
8. I'm not sure what your argument is here against the statement I made. Apparently our government IS concerned with what cars we buy because they are trying to legislate their way into making us buy electric cars. My point is if they are successful in doing so what are they going to do for those that can't afford them? Tell them they have to walk or ride a bike instead of driving their ice powered car?
9. This one seems pretty easy to understand. We are but one tiny landmass in the world. We already had more restrictions on fossil fuel emissions than 98% of the world. The entire U.S. changing to EVs to the last man will have no measurable effect on stopping pollution if the rest of the world doesn't do the same thing. And that will never happen! Not in 100 years or 1000. It is a freaking pipe dream. Developing better emissions equipment that will reduce air pollution while keeping cheap fossil fuels is a far better plan than going electric. I could list 1000 reasons why but most of them are common sense and/or self-evident.
I'm neither for or against EV’s yet. For me the jury is still out. So while I agree with most of your points I do think numbers 2, 8, and 9 can be debated.
2. Very debatable. People just fear change. Sometimes with good reason, other times not so much. Without change we would live in the dark age still.
8. So far no one has said anyone cannot or will not be able to drive their ICE cars ever. That is just fear based projecting at this point. Also without question costs will come down on EV’s obviously as they become more mainstream as with literally any other transportation in history. Looking back to when cars were first invented, only wealthy people could afford one. And now look. Flying, trains, it’s universal.
9. I see the argument about the pointless tiny US impact quite a bit. The fly in the ointment there is that manufacturers are jumping on the bandwagon by going 100% EV only (Cadillac, Volvo just to name two). Meaning by default it isnt just here in the US. It certainly wont be limited to the US. There’s a whole world outside of our little bubble. If anyone anywhere wants a Volvo it will only be an EV. It will spread globally as more and more only produce EV’s. Hell even Lamborghini is starting to build them. It cant happen overnight and because of that many people think it cant happen at all. Range and charging will improve and newer generations wont care about ICE’s at all.
I do agree that unless the manufacturing process is also clean then it makes no sense. So many cons currently, I can see many of the pros too though. Currently I’m just hopefully observing and wont hit the panic button quite yet. Hovering though lol.
 

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change should stand side by side with choice. Not be forced onto a free society by the government. henry ford made a model t and sold lots of them. He then made the model A and people saw it was better and it made the model t an antique. What would have happened back then if the government said all model ts have to go. After a certain date your no longer allowed to own them. You MUST buy a model A because it has a better more efficient motor. I say get the govenment out of the picture and let the people tell the manufactures by what they go to a lot and buy instead of some hypocrite in dc that pollutes more in a week then i do in a year telling me I HAVE to buy something because if i dont some of the wacko people that are his followers wont vote for him anymore. Thats the truth plain and simple. They dont care about global warming. They care about votes and power.
Again, I'm not for or against EV’s yet but no one has said there’s a certain date that ICE’s have to be taken off the road and that you cant own one. Maybe new yes. But theyre not taking away people’s cars lol. That argument makes no sense to me. I’m not even sure how that is part of the discussion.
You're currently free to not buy an EV or to not buy an ICE powered car. You’re also free to vote.
Also I'm not sure how pissing off half of the nation is garnering votes and power. It would be a lot easier to avoid EV’s altogether and not alienate roughly half of your potential votes imo. If it is indeed getting votes then that tells me that the people have spoken and even if it’s somehow a scheme, at the very least we’re seeing that people actually do want EV’s. It’s simple, use your own power - vote.
 

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um maybe you should look at the law passed in CA. Maybe watch your president and vice president in speeches saying there going to force the phasing out of fossil fuel cars and trucks. I do agree with your last sentence though. Its the vote that will change this and in a couple months your going to see it CHANGED. I dont know how any free american would or could condone the government telling us what kind of cars we drive. Or using there power to force it through back doors like artificially inflating the price of gas. Or giving out my tax money to people who dont need it to buy a car so they buy what those polititians want us to buy.

Or by putting epa limits on pollution they create while doing nothing about the pollution created by evs. Not even forcing them like they do fossil fuel powered cars and trucks to meat fuel economy standards. They dont even have to prove there range ratings. Just pull them out of the air. Heck they want you to think they run for free and cause no pollution. Anyone with a 3rd grade education knows thats bunk!! If you cant see this as a conspiracy i feel sorry for you.

Whole thing reminds me of legalized pot for medicine. ANY OTHER drug has to pass years of testing for side effects and dangers. Even a pack of cigarettes has a surgeon general warning on it. Pot? No testing what so ever. No warning it can cause lung cancer. NOTHING. Not even any controls on how its grown. What is used to fertilize it. It could be fertilized by human feces and you would never know. What chemicals are in it when they make it into candy ect. Why? because our government is run by hippys from the 60s and again will do anything for votes.
I agree with some of that. But the CA law will phase out new ICE’s, not cars already on the road. I get what you're saying though, in the end it does basically phase ICE out altogether. Im not convinced it’s strictly for votes though. For me I guess it’s just not that black and white. Yet. I think there are arguments on both sides and the truth is prob somewhere in the middle.
 

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I dont do middle ground. Its black or white and if your in the middle you dont stand up for either and that makes you just a sheep. I actually have more respect for the for the hippys . At least they are standing up for what they believe is right even though its a fairy tale. I am not against your right to drive an ev. Completely the opposite. Ill fight for your right to choose to drive an ev or a gas powered car or a horse if thats what you prefer and your willing to pay for it with your money not mine.
 

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Some of the arguments are pretty hilarious when you realize we all pretty much agree and are arguing on just why it's a Sh**show.

Point 8 was the government doesn't care about the individuals ability to buy a personal vehicle, their concern is with regulations, think McDonalds: Congress doesn't care if a Big Mac cost $1 or $1,000, they don't want broken glass in the patties, rats parts in the bun, Salmonella in the lettuce; whether it taste good, provides complete nutrition, or is affordable to the masses doesn't factor in.

Lithium mining is destructive like coal mining, diamond mining, gold mining, or any mining; it's an inherently destructive process to mine anything. It's the way it's mined, cutting tunnels and following veins vs. strip mining a mountain into a pit. The environmental impact argument seems to be "do you want you left eye gouged out or the right eye?" "Um, can I choose neither?" "No, your getting an eye gouged out so which is it".

The lack of oxygen vs. the amount of pollutants in the air now is so much higher than it has ever been, the entire world is industrializing but it's a small cabal of countries that are trying to impose environmental regulations. Personally a mountain turned into a pit in Bolivia isn't my problem, it has no effect on my life. Breathing in the air in LA does affect my lungs, I've been in LA on those high pollution days and it sucks, not Beijing bad but it's disgusting. If you live in the rural mid-west air pollution isn't an issue, get into the major urban population areas and it goes up.
 

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yup look at where the worse pollution is. Its in the big citys. right were most of the bitching about air pollution comes from. They drive to work polluting to jobs that pollute but want us in the rural areas that dont have a problem to suffer with them. Clean up there own back yard and voluntarily do things to pollute less instead of trying to blame everyone for what they and there parents did. If you dont like the citys move. I made a good living and havent set foot in a big city in 20 years. Maybe youd have to take a cut in pay and could only afford a scat pack instead of a hellcat. But im sick of them lumping me in with the citys and trying to regulate us where there is no problem.

Weve got some of the most rural areas and wilderness in the country. Theres LARGE iron ore mines here but youd never know it if you didnt know where they were. LOTS of people burn wood, about everyone drives pickups and you dont see a single ev unless its a tourist and we have some of the cleanest air and water in the nation.

Only pollution problem is the summer tourists from the city that invade here and leave there trash on every side road in the county. come here thinking they own it. That its some playground for them to use up. Thousands of campers being pulled and motor homes and even cars with tents. Maybe we should ban campers because they sure use alot of fossil fuel and have no respect for anything. They can stay in there citys and save the planet doing it. Same ones are the type that pull a 35 foot camper across country with there 3/4 ton truck then go home and scream global warming till next summer when they want to commune with nature again. there like everyone else. They talk the talk but expect everyone else to do the walking. Almost as comical as someone even trying to argue whats good for the planet when they drive a hellcat to work. Im out of this one now. I dont play well with hypocrites. This post was not aimed at you hellcathellya. I agree with most of what you said.
 
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