[Carpe Diem]

Disclaimer: my engine knowledge/experience is sketchy at best. So KISS (keep it simple stupid )

2016 Charger HC with DSS aluminum driveshaft, Per4mance diff brace.

Now I would like to add some power and in my "simplified" mind, and from what I've read in various places, I'm thinking 2.85 pulley (was originally going Metco, but the Litens, even though more expensive, is intriguing with the safety factor), belt, pinned crank and a tune.

I chose a local performance shop (recommended by some fellow Moparonians) and stopped by to feel them out. "Dan" (owner) told me that while he had worked on a lot of hemi's he hadn't specifically done much with Hellcats; he did qualify this by saying he'd done a lot of work/tunes on NA engines that had been upgraded with SC's.

During the course of our conversation he said that first step was to do a few dyno runs (cheap like borscht) to baseline the engine/car and check out the timing(s), talked about being unsure of retarding the timing enough relative to the amount of boost change, etc. and what the HP gains would be. I took comfort in the fact that he didn't just agree to do what I suggested without doing his due diligence first. Then again, I don't know much.

My goal is to have about a 100'ish HP gain while running on pump gas (94) and also maintaining daily driver drivability/realiability. Also occasional trips to the local drag strip (also have a set of 18" Mickey Thompsons, which I have yet to try out as I was waiting for the DS and brace upgrade).

Thoughts, opinions and suggestions appreciated

thanks.

p.s. I've just recently educated myself on harmonic dampers. Is this something I should be considering for the power levels I'm going for ? Is it a good insurance policy regardless ?

 

[MKL_DS]

You are on a good path with hard parts, but, my personal advice is to seek out a reputable Hellcat tuner.
Tuning a Hellcat is not like tuning a 5.7 or 6.4 with a blower strapped to it, and there are soooo many intricacies that the top guys already have figured out that it makes it worth the time, effort and cost to work with them.

You'll get many suggestions from others on the board here, and a quick search will get you tons of info on who is out there and what they offer, etc.

 

[Carpe Diem]

So, it's all a moot point now.

Took the car in to see Dan, he did a few runs on the dyno. Bad knock at WOT, could see the ECU pulling back timing in an attempt to mitigate it, but after a couple of attempt it eventually ran out of room; he cut one run off early because he wasn't comfortable with the knock that was happening). He used listening devices on the block itself (to eliminate any "fake" knocks that might come from the SC's internals/running) and while he didn't want to say anything when I was in just talking to him the other day, he's had three other 'Cats on the dyno and they all did the same thing. The culprit ? Canadian gas (94). sigh. So adding boost is only going to make the issue worse, unless he tunes out the knock which means less hp, which means why bother spending the money for zero to potentially negative gain. He also commented that if he saw this kind of extensive knock on a Scat it would most likely break the engine (thank goodness for the strong internals of the 6.2).

E85 is not an option here (two places sell it in a metropolitan area of 2.5million) and it's not available anywhere else in the Province (I'm in British Columbia). Despite the strong internals he indicated that the potential is there for engine issues down the road, so I'm left with using octane booster just to maintain the engine in it's stock setup to mitigate potential future issues. Ugh.

He is going to explore possible solutions (charge cooler was one he suggested) and we'll see, but I'm not overly hopeful. In the end, while I'm disappointed for obvious reasons I'm happy with my choice of tuner/shop as it was patently obvious his primary concern is the well being of El Gato Blanco's heart.

Stoopid Canuck gasoline !!

 

[MKL_DS]

Well, I still feel that there is power to be gained from proper tuning.
If he did nothing else but clean up the spark tables to eliminate the current levels of knock, it will make more power than letting it knock. The PCM will always pull more timing than needed.

Surely you are aware that there are guys, even in California running poor quality 91 octane fuel, who have not only tuned for more power but modified the vehicle to safely make way more power than Stock.

Also, the knock sensors are there to prevent any damage. Just because it is knocking a lot, doesn’t mean that it would have damaged the motor. That’s why the sensors are there and so aggressive.

It’s entirely up to you how you proceed, but I would not let the fact that it was knocking on the Stock calibration keep me from tuning it to improve its performance if that’s what you’re after.

 

[Carpe Diem]

"Well, I still feel that there is power to be gained from proper tuning.
If he did nothing else but clean up the spark tables to eliminate the current levels of knock, it will make more power than letting it knock. The PCM will always pull more timing than needed. "

As he explained it to me (and understand, I'm a noob at this shit) there wasn't "room" to pull it back enough to mitigate the poor (or not "perfect") fuel burn. Apparently Canadian 94 isn't as good as California 91. That being said, I appreciate the input and will ask him outright if he can tune out the knock and what the end result would be.

"Also, the knock sensors are there to prevent any damage. Just because it is knocking a lot, doesn’t mean that it would have damaged the motor. That’s why the sensors are there and so aggressive."

That may be true, but he was actually listening to the knock off of the block. He overlaid the resulting audio file over the timing graph so not only could you visually see the bad burns, but hear them as well, and when it was at WOT it was, lets say, not good.

I am definitely going to explore further with him (as I indicated, he is going to try figure out a solution) so the dialogue will go on.

Thanks for the input MKL_DS, I really do appreciate it. Hoping I get some more feedback on here from others as well so I can learn and make educated decisions.

cheers.

 

[MKL_DS]

Did you buy the car new?

 

[Carpe Diem]

Yes I did (well, it had 500km on it).

 

[16GoManGoHC]

It shouldn’t be knocking on 93+ octane fuel at stock boost and tune ??? Is that the stock tune or a modified tune? You may have crappy gas? Try a QT of Octanium Unleaded in a Half tank of fuel. If your knock doesn’t go away you got problems. Pull the plugs and look at them, you may have melted one or more or worse. Knock is an engines worst enemy, Even the Hellcats engine can’t take it well.

 

[Greengohellcat]

I'm in Ontario, I tried the Shell 91 the HC ran well.
Went back to the PetroCan 94 and the car was a bit more responsive to throttle inputs.
I did a few back to back tanks of fuel "testing" each.
Definitely the PetroCan 94 has the edge over the Shell E free "Ferrari spec/inspired" 91.
I'm sticking with the 94 for summer driving months.

I have not tried Esso 93 yet.
I was hoping that Shell would up its' game in the octane game, I'm sure that the Ferrari owners wouldn't mind a bit more octane to play with...

 

[Carpe Diem]

"It shouldn’t be knocking on 93+ octane fuel at stock boost and tune ? "

It is, but no tune (or, I guess to be totally accurate, it's on the factory tune). As I said in my post regarding the dyno run, it's (apparently) the Canadian gas. This particular tuner/shop says he's seen the exact same thing on three other stock Hellcats. There is nothing wrong in the engine (melted plugs or worse) as it purrs like the proverbial kitten across the power band; unless you're approaching or at WOT. Shows up when the pedal is to the metal.

I am going to run with an octane booster and the 94 while the tuner tries to figure out what to do; keep in mind that he is not only looking at the knock sensors but matches it up against audio (sensors attached to block).

I'm also thinking of visiting another tuner/shop to talk to them about it, and possibly do a run on their dyno.

 

[Carpe Diem]

Hi GreenGo

The only station in the Wild West (or BC anyway) that has 94 is Chevron. All the others sell 91 as their premium.

Have you had your car dyno'd ?

 

[Greengohellcat]

BTW, I never put my car on a dyno, but I do know my car. I don't have real evidence of better performance.
I would have to think that your tuner knows what they are talking about.

Ask him what octane booster he recommends. Most off the shelf stuff will not do what you need it to do.

 

[Greengohellcat]

Ha! You beat me to it!

 

[Greengohellcat]

We only have a couple of Chevron stations here. Nothing near me...
Ultra 94 was really good in my Camaro SS as well. That car just ran better on it.

 

[MKL_DS]

"It shouldn’t be knocking on 93+ octane fuel at stock boost and tune ? "

It is, but no tune (or, I guess to be totally accurate, it's on the factory tune). As I said in my post regarding the dyno run, it's (apparently) the Canadian gas. This particular tuner/shop says he's seen the exact same thing on three other stock Hellcats. There is nothing wrong in the engine (melted plugs or worse) as it purrs like the proverbial kitten across the power band; unless you're approaching or at WOT. Shows up when the pedal is to the metal.

I am going to run with an octane booster and the 94 while the tuner tries to figure out what to do; keep in mind that he is not only looking at the knock sensors but matches it up against audio (sensors attached to block).

I'm also thinking of visiting another tuner/shop to talk to them about it, and possibly do a run on their dyno.

do you have the ability to log it on the street?
Was it a loaded dyno?

 

[Carpe Diem]

do you have the ability to log it on the street?
Was it a loaded dyno?

Unfortunately, I don't have the ability to log the car on the street. And yes, it was a loaded dyno; however, the same thing happened on an unloaded run.

 

[Carpe Diem]

Going to see another tuner/shop on Wednesday, going to do another three pulls and see what's up (if anything). Will update.

 

[MKL_DS]

Try fueling up from a different station if possible to see if that helps this time around.

 

[Carpe Diem]

Talking to the tuner at the other shop, the issue is that the 94 around here doesn't always move the same at every station. So, sometimes it's been sitting for a long time and...

Plus, it's Canuck gas, apparently not as consistent as gas in the States.

And I do use different Chevrons (only they carry the 94), quite possible I got a lame fill last time. shrug.


This second tuner is confident he can remap everything so we can do the pulley swap. We'll see what Wednesdays runs show.

 

[Linda's Hell Cat]

@Carpe Diem I have been watching your thread and think it is the right move to check with another Tuner.
@MKL_DS 's advice on getting a Reputable Hellcat Tuner is the best thing you can do.

I know because my husband @Top Cat Myself and Josh from High Horse Performance spents months on end going to the track 3Xs a week for the R&D +Test Tuning of parts and Tuning.
@Top Cat would post up on here his frustrations and getting past them to let everyone know what was working.

I had the 1st Hellcat Charger into the 9s.Top Cat was bantering with a Hellcat in Texas. They rented the track made it 1st into the 9s but blew the engine. Two hours later Top Cat made it into the 9s and backed it up with a better 9 second pass.

My husbands Ultimate goal was getting his 2015 Challenger into the 8s. "Top Cat"
Josh's goal was to get it safely into the 8s meaning no engine blow ups.
( RIP My husband John )
The goal was achieved by Josh in 2017
was the 1st A8 into the 8s. TopCat Dodge Challenger Hellcat Runs 8s | RacePages Digital

So think about it if you are not using an experienced Tuner they would need to either
Steal a Tune which does happen We knew that happened because we knew who sold out but also there was not another Tuner at that time besides Josh that could get past 9.8. Both my husband and I ended the season with 9.7s

Or you can be a Test HC for your Tuner.
By going to the track for R&D and T&T

What you are lucky about is all the parts that have been brought to the market that have been track tested.

There are many known builds and combinations
But a Good Hellcat Tuner is the Key to Speed!


Good Luck with your new Tuner I hope he has experience with Hellcats and all works out for you!

Linda