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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Seeing as it seems the last manual HC was built last year, how many were made in the 5.5 year run for them? I ran some quick numbers last night and came up with only, 8,721 from 2015-2020. Can’t find the numbers for 2021 and even the 2019/2020 numbers are hard to find. That’s fewer than the number of RE’s and Trackhawks. It would also mean that less than 15% of all HC’s made were manuals.

Wonder if this will be a price driver later.

I think back to the ‘87 Grand National and the 20,740 made. That’s a big number yet the price has flown compared to the original sticker.

The 1970 Chevrolet Chevelle SS 454 had 4,475 built for a cost of $3486. Now low end they are valued at $125,000. That’s a 350% increase.

Low build numbers of heavy hitting cars have always been a money maker.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I could see it with the SS and Demons but really doubt the RE will do much
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
High prices have always been driven by limited numbers and low option builds
 
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Wonder if this will be a price driver later.
Maybe, maybe not. In the classic car market, the manuals were less common than automatics on most cars. The reason those drive a premium is because the manual was the performance enhancing option as those old automatics were the old fashioned slush box automatics.

In the modern HC, the manual is the performance reducing option. It offers a more connected experience, but it is a performance negative. I think they may drive a premium on a niche market purchase. Specialty private sale, popular auction, etc. However, on the normal secondary market, they bring less money (3-5k less).
 

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High prices have always been driven by limited numbers and low option builds
True, but only for one-off type options. Things like the Chevy II with the L72 option (427 cid) or the early-mid 60s street sleeper Biscayne with the 327 or later 409. The other kicker is that the rare option has to be desirable. For example, nobody is going to pay $1 over sticker for a 2015 SXT that is a 1 of 1 because it has a certain exterior and interior option combo.

Now, the question is, will the Hellcat M6 be rare and desirable enough to drive a premium in the future?

Maybe. But if so, only in limited situations. Most people see the M6 Hellcat as neat, but most people also know that the M6 Hellcat is considerably slower than the A8 cars. This would be like a rare 429 Torino with a C6 auto instead of the Muncie 4 speed top loader. They made some, but man, nobody wanted them... then or now. I don't think the HC will fare that poorly, but I think you'd have to try hard to put M6 buyers in front of the car to get a premium. With no effort, they'll sell for less than an A8.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
The T-Types are almost matching the GN’s on price. The fox bodies are still pretty low cost and the 3 gens are still going well below sticker. Now if you’re looking at rare low build cars, the SLP 4th gens are climbing, Blackhawks are climbing, Typhoons and Syclones are all climbing and or super expensive. The 73-87’s are never gonna be highly sought after due to the government restrictions on them during that time.

A high horsepower car, with low build number options(man vs auto trans, non ac, ext), and rare colors drive price. Cuda’s, 454 Chevelle’s, Superbirds, Turbo Trans Am’s, 90’s ZR1, and many others are low build option “big” power cars. The 71 Hemi Cuda 1/11 manual cars built is a perfect example. The 69 Hurst Olds is another example worth 6 figures due to the trans option.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
I guess I just look at it as this, in 20 years no one will care if the Hellcat auto was a couple tenths quick over a M6, if there are 5x as many auto’s out there and there is always something faster than you out there anyway. No one looks at the quarter mile times of the 60’s and 70’s cars to go, oh this one was 2/10’s quicker, it’s a worth more. It will go on availability, colors and options. The SS and Demon will fly in 20 years, and the Durango with “low” HP will also be super expensive due to limited build numbers.
 

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Seeing as it seems the last manual HC was built last year, how many were made in the 5.5 year run for them? I ran some quick numbers last night and came up with only, 8,721 from 2015-2020. Can’t find the numbers for 2021 and even the 2019/2020 numbers are hard to find. That’s fewer than the number of RE’s and Trackhawks. It would also mean that less than 15% of all HC’s made were manuals.

Wonder if this will be a price driver later.

I think back to the ‘87 Grand National and the 20,740 made. That’s a big number yet the price has flown compared to the original sticker.

The 1970 Chevrolet Chevelle SS 454 had 4,475 built for a cost of $3486. Now low end they are valued at $125,000. That’s a 350% increase.

Low build numbers of heavy hitting cars have always been a money maker.
2021 are (at this time) the two (2) known test cars.
2020 is unknown we need someone with a M6 config tree for both the widebodies and standard bodied cars to get the total (100+96 = 196).
2019 I have a partial answer. There were 292 WB M6 cars made globally, we need the global figure for the standard bodied cars (292+B = C).

EDIT: Full answer to the 2020s added thanks to @Imacattin & @MerlinsGarage
 

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I guess I just look at it as this, in 20 years no one will care if the Hellcat auto was a couple tenths quick over a M6, if there are 5x as many auto’s out there. It will go on availability, colors and options. The SS and Demon will fly in 20 years, and the Durango with “low” HP will also be super expensive due to limited build numbers.
Do you know what else gets people excited about rarity and exclusivity? Cars spec'd without things/options except big engines. I got one of those. HEMI Dart, anyone? A12 Super Bee/Road Runner, huh? ZL1, eh? Z-11 Impalas? 421 Super Duty Catalinas (the aluminum ones), ah? Factory light-weight Thunderbolts, oh?

A bunch of outdated, obsolete, cancelled/non-supported tech, is not going to be desirable.
 

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The T-Types are almost matching the GN’s on price. The fox bodies are still pretty low cost and the 3 gens are still going well below sticker. Now if you’re looking at rare low build cars, the SLP 4th gens are climbing, Blackhawks are climbing, Typhoons and Syclones are all climbing and or super expensive. The 73-87’s are never gonna be highly sought after due to the government restrictions on them during that time.

A high horsepower car, with low build number options(man vs auto trans, non ac, ext), and rare colors drive price. Cuda’s, 454 Chevelle’s, Superbirds, Turbo Trans Am’s, 90’s ZR1, and many others are low build option “big” power cars. The 71 Hemi Cuda 1/11 manual cars built is a perfect example. The 69 Hurst Olds is another example worth 6 figures due to the trans option.
Foxbodies are still low price? Where? 3 gens are going below sticker where? Show me either one say under 20k miles.
73-87 Squarebodies will never be highly sought after?
Dude you can’t be serious or this really is your first rodeo.
I guess I remember my first time.
 

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I agree that the tech will be obsolete on pretty much every car being built today within 5 years and the Uconnect isn't exactly cutting edge.

Dodge hasn't said that it won't produce a manual, it's even still listed as an option even though you can't order one. They may or may not produce another one but, they are planning on it.

I think the RE's will hold value better than JB's over time, for the reasons above, it's more about the heart than the bling. I guess we'll see.
 

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Foxbodies are still low price? Where? 3 gens are going below sticker where? Show me either one say under 20k miles.
73-87 Squarebodies will never be highly sought after?
Dude you can’t be serious or this really is your first rodeo.
I guess I remember my first time.
The average auction price of a 1987 GT Convertible is sitting around $15,000 right now. In comparison, the average price of a 1967 Mustang Convertible averages $41,000. 1997 Mustang GT Convertibles (low miles under 40k) average $30k, higher miles, $20k.

No matter the year or body type (well, we're not going to talk about the '77 Mustang Landau), the unused cars will fetch a super premium. Doesn't matter if it's a Mustang, Belvedere, New Yorker, Corvair, or any classic really. There is a niche buyer that is looking for a low mileage survivor car and they will pay a big premium for them. However, when you toss those out, the Fox Mustangs and the Mustang IIs are the bottom of the barrel in terms of Mustang desirability. They don't even hold up value when compared against an equally underwhelming SN95. As shown above, the '97 being only 10 years newer than the '87, and it sells for considerably more.

Once you squeak past the '71 Mustang, the only really sought after Mustangs in terms of high collector value are Shelbys, SVTs, and a few of the one-off models like the SVO, Cobra R (which is an SVT car really). There's a side market for Saleens and Roush cars... but Roush cars are kind of like the budget Shelby option and they don't generally do so well at auction. Even then, the 90s era non-Terminator, non-Mystichrome Cobras of that era aren't really all that desirable. They fetch a small premium above their GT counterparts, but they're not special.

But back on point... Fox Mustangs, by and large, are not highly sought after. I'd begin to say that with most collectors, they're simply undesirable. Beginner and amateur collectors might want one because their uncle had one when they were kids or some such... but the Fox Mustangs were underpowered, relatively ugly in comparison to most other Mustang generations, and were made of plastic and synthetic materials that do not age well. There's a term for a lot of Fox Mustangs: Auction fodder. Many people, me included, have sold a few Fox Mustangs at auction. We generally clean them up, swap the upholstery and put a stripe kit or something silly on them just to get them to pick up a few dollars across the block. The best I ever did was an '87 GT convertible that I purchased for $8,100. 82k miles. I spent around $800 on repairs and refreshing and sold it for $12,000. I cashed out a whopping total of $1,400 after auction fees and costs. The Fox Mustang shares the same fate as the square bird Thunderbirds... in that the market doesn't reward a restoration. A fully pristine restored Fox Mustang is going to cost $60k or more to do. They won't bring 50k at auction. Same with a '64 T-Bird. A concourse restored example might bring close to 50k if it's all numbers matching, etc. The cost to restore a '64 T-Bird, that was originally in decent condition, cost me close to $100,000 (I did a lot of it myself, but it was a present for my dad). It is appraised at $42,000. Fox Mustangs are eerily similar in that they're not worth it to restore, so everyone just restomods them.

The other thing about Fox auctions: The people bidding on them don't bring a lot of money, generally. They're the "classic" for people who can't afford to bid on a '69. So while you might get 20 people bidding on it, they're bidding in $100 and $50 denominations. If someone loses the auction, there's 20 more just like it, probably at that same auction. They're still everywhere. It's not like a '69 Mach 1 351c where a big auction might have 2 or 3 examples... one of which is going to be a big restomod.

Lastly, the other thing that's really hurt the Fox market is the drag racing scene. It's very difficult to find an unmolested Fox GT that hasn't been raced and cobbled together with all sorts of f'd up repairs. They were popular at the track when they were new, and they're still popular today. The cheap donor cars get scooped up for tubs and a big motor and continue on as a budget dragster. This leaves a fairly wide gulf between quality "collector" cars and the plethora of aging drag cars with their rusted frames, bent unibodies, and 2ft high of Bondo all along the rear quarters.

For these reasons, the Fox Mustangs are generally not desirable. Outside of the 15,000mi unmolested unicorn, most of them aren't worth the cost to maintain or store. Even if they're perfect, the average person sees one and goes, "Eww." I'm a long time Mustang guy, and I am one of those people. There's just no draw to a plain looking slab sided car with anemic horsepower. Back in the '90s when I was in my late teens and early 20s, I never could understand why people were buying them to take to the track. They used to go nuts over running 13s, and here I was in a 70 Torino 429 running high 10s... and I guarantee you I spent a lot less on my car than the new Mustangs cost.

The Fox Mustang is one of the few "classic" Mustangs that, when adjusted for inflation, trades well below its MSRP. It's just a very underwhelming car and the only people that buy them are very specific niche buyers. As of yet, supply is too high and those niche buyers have plenty of options, thus, the price on them is still very low.
 

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People who buy collector cars generally do not race them, it will not matter how much faster an A8 is. People buy collector cars only for the cool factor, and the M6 is way more cool than an A8!
If it was way cooler, they'd amount to more than 15% of units made across the life of the car. It's quite telling in that for a "cool" option that costs a lot less, it didn't really sell well at all. It's not like we can blame it on kids who don't know how to drive a manual, when the average age of a Hellcat owner is something like 53.
 

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The average auction price of a 1987 GT Convertible is sitting around $15,000 right now. In comparison, the average price of a 1967 Mustang Convertible averages $41,000. 1997 Mustang GT Convertibles (low miles under 40k) average $30k, higher miles, $20k.

No matter the year or body type (well, we're not going to talk about the '77 Mustang Landau), the unused cars will fetch a super premium. Doesn't matter if it's a Mustang, Belvedere, New Yorker, Corvair, or any classic really. There is a niche buyer that is looking for a low mileage survivor car and they will pay a big premium for them. However, when you toss those out, the Fox Mustangs and the Mustang IIs are the bottom of the barrel in terms of Mustang desirability. They don't even hold up value when compared against an equally underwhelming SN95. As shown above, the '97 being only 10 years newer than the '87, and it sells for considerably more.

Once you squeak past the '71 Mustang, the only really sought after Mustangs in terms of high collector value are Shelbys, SVTs, and a few of the one-off models like the SVO, Cobra R (which is an SVT car really). There's a side market for Saleens and Roush cars... but Roush cars are kind of like the budget Shelby option and they don't generally do so well at auction. Even then, the 90s era non-Terminator, non-Mystichrome Cobras of that era aren't really all that desirable. They fetch a small premium above their GT counterparts, but they're not special.

But back on point... Fox Mustangs, by and large, are not highly sought after. I'd begin to say that with most collectors, they're simply undesirable. Beginner and amateur collectors might want one because their uncle had one when they were kids or some such... but the Fox Mustangs were underpowered, relatively ugly in comparison to most other Mustang generations, and were made of plastic and synthetic materials that do not age well. There's a term for a lot of Fox Mustangs: Auction fodder. Many people, me included, have sold a few Fox Mustangs at auction. We generally clean them up, swap the upholstery and put a stripe kit or something silly on them just to get them to pick up a few dollars across the block. The best I ever did was an '87 GT convertible that I purchased for $8,100. 82k miles. I spent around $800 on repairs and refreshing and sold it for $12,000. I cashed out a whopping total of $1,400 after auction fees and costs. The Fox Mustang shares the same fate as the square bird Thunderbirds... in that the market doesn't reward a restoration. A fully pristine restored Fox Mustang is going to cost $60k or more to do. They won't bring 50k at auction. Same with a '64 T-Bird. A concourse restored example might bring close to 50k if it's all numbers matching, etc. The cost to restore a '64 T-Bird, that was originally in decent condition, cost me close to $100,000 (I did a lot of it myself, but it was a present for my dad). It is appraised at $42,000. Fox Mustangs are eerily similar in that they're not worth it to restore, so everyone just restomods them.

The other thing about Fox auctions: The people bidding on them don't bring a lot of money, generally. They're the "classic" for people who can't afford to bid on a '69. So while you might get 20 people bidding on it, they're bidding in $100 and $50 denominations. If someone loses the auction, there's 20 more just like it, probably at that same auction. They're still everywhere. It's not like a '69 Mach 1 351c where a big auction might have 2 or 3 examples... one of which is going to be a big restomod.

Lastly, the other thing that's really hurt the Fox market is the drag racing scene. It's very difficult to find an unmolested Fox GT that hasn't been raced and cobbled together with all sorts of f'd up repairs. They were popular at the track when they were new, and they're still popular today. The cheap donor cars get scooped up for tubs and a big motor and continue on as a budget dragster. This leaves a fairly wide gulf between quality "collector" cars and the plethora of aging drag cars with their rusted frames, bent unibodies, and 2ft high of Bondo all along the rear quarters.

For these reasons, the Fox Mustangs are generally not desirable. Outside of the 15,000mi unmolested unicorn, most of them aren't worth the cost to maintain or store. Even if they're perfect, the average person sees one and goes, "Eww." I'm a long time Mustang guy, and I am one of those people. There's just no draw to a plain looking slab sided car with anemic horsepower. Back in the '90s when I was in my late teens and early 20s, I never could understand why people were buying them to take to the track. They used to go nuts over running 13s, and here I was in a 70 Torino 429 running high 10s... and I guarantee you I spent a lot less on my car than the new Mustangs cost.

The Fox Mustang is one of the few "classic" Mustangs that, when adjusted for inflation, trades well below its MSRP. It's just a very underwhelming car and the only people that buy them are very specific niche buyers. As of yet, supply is too high and those niche buyers have plenty of options, thus, the price on them is still very low.
2 things:
nobody wants a vert fox. They want notches and hatches.
they never made a 69 Mach 1 with a 351C
 

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If it was way cooler, they'd amount to more than 15% of units made across the life of the car. It's quite telling in that for a "cool" option that costs a lot less, it didn't really sell well at all. It's not like we can blame it on kids who don't know how to drive a manual, when the average age of a Hellcat owner is something like 53.
I’d argue the older generation would much prefer the convenience of the auto vs the manual.

The concept of an auto trans, or even a self driving car will always be existent. The manual is on it’s way out and there will always be people willing to pay a little extra to have one, even if it’s not the popular preference.

Will it be worth more than the A8 to the majority? Who knows, but it will definitely be worth more to some.
 
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