PS air termperatures were not dramatically different, but, hey, even if I'm in a 105 degree desert, I don't want the catalytics to turn into pools of red-hot slag.

 

How many miles do you have on it right now? There's several things that change change after 500 miles IIRC.

 

Completely-broken-in levels of mileage.

 

Also, that 500 mile thing is more to protect the trans and rear end during break in than the engine. But the engine is kinda punked for a bit too, but I forgot what exactly is different,

 

Pull fuses for abs . That does it

 

PS I would like to bleed a little air from the blower to help the catalysts catalyze, but, oy vey that would mess with the perceived AFR.

I like clean air. What can I say?

I also noted that most catalyts are the spiral-wrapped catalyst blanket type. What happened to metal honeycomb with catalyziing surface that actually has good flow?

Evidently the spiral-wrapped blanket types are THE highest-flowing catalysts. I could see that. You can build a lot more strength per unit of thickness into a metal sheet than most other things in existence, and then wrap it in a spiral.

Back in the day, the catalyst was a bunch of balls, ceramic? with catalyst on the surface held in a basket that the exhaust would try to work its way through. Hideous flow numbers, I imagine.

 

Spiral wound is I believe an attempt to increase surface area and provide for more efficient exhaust gas processing.

As an aside the old style converters with the balls were notorious for failing. The ceramic matrix style is much more durable.

The stock converters are high flowing. It is obvious the exhaust system must allow the exhaust gases to escape or the engine would fail to run when its combustion output overwhelmed the exhaust system.

 

YES, WE DISABLED TRACTION CONTROL MANUALLY IN THE ON-SCREEN MENU BEFORE STARTING.

With disabled traction control, did all we could with the cockpit controls, and the car was massivly applying rear brakes.

So, pulled out FUSE NUMBER 36, and were able to run full throttle.

Next run, it was in Check Engine Crisis mode, and had to pull fuses 5 and 6 to get it to quit acting Amazing in the Desmond sense.

Then, to fully vomitize the dyno pull, it started barfing fuel like a sick drunk to cool off the precious catalytic converters, and chopped 18hp off. I thought, "wow that oil must suck" until the dyno guy pointed out that the second run, the A/F ratio absolutely plummeted.

A/F ratio was hideous after a certain point. At least it didn't fluid-lock the cylinders with one quart per stroke and bend a connecting rod.

So, if you are going to run your BONE STOCK HELLCAT on the dyno, I suggest you don't.

First, get an aftermarket PCM with a tune, and for God's sake dispose of the Catalytic Shriekers.

I don't needs something threatening to go all China Syndrome under my car if i lay into the throttle, no matter how much I like clean air.

Until you do, you are going to find your car is being choked by the stock PCM.

I am curious just how many other controls there are that it uses to kill all possible fun in the name of reducing warranty claims.

If there is a danger of overheating the catalytic converters, here's a clever clue: USE BIGGER ONES, MOPAR. No car should act stupid at WOT.

Only change to the car was changing the engine, transmission, and rear end oils.

Literally not one other thing done.

Dropped 18 hp (you could see on the graph where the fuel/air ratio went nutso.)

So, I have to refrigerate my catalysts to Save the Flatulent Whales or whatever?

I so curious how much power is laying in wait that will be released when the PCM isn't try to Save the Pandas or whatever.

Truly disgusted, but glad to have the information.

The second pull, it was climbing nicely but after a certain RPM, unlike first pull, it just went into sissy mode and started hosing the catalysts with fuel.

sigh Looks like Brer Fox is threatening to throw me in the briar patch. PCM, tune, no treehugalytic converters.

I was considering trying a K and N drop-in filter, too, but I figured, nah. Now I'm thinking of waiting until the car is sorted out before doing that. When you can drop 3 percent due to car just randomly deciding it was Crazy Time, you aren't really dealing with a consistent test baseline to turn into an accurate experiment.

Gee, I guess the missing catalyts would mean I could use that new exhaust system on here someone is touting... but, with a proper ECM, etc. Having the engine go into shriek mode to protect the precious widdle catalysts failed to impress me.

The engine controller won't add fuel to cool the converters. An overly rich mixture means any fuel that makes it out of the combustion chambers would be burned in the converters thus subjecting them to overheating. This is why when the engine controller detects rich misfires it flashes the CEL to warn of possible converter damage engine operating conditions.

There's something else not right.

 

Yep.. More fuel means hotter cats. Assuming this is the stock tune and AFR's are being reported to the ECU properly, the only reason the ECU would run things richer is if there is knock it can't take care of just by retarding ignition alone. That or it’s still in warm-up and dumping fuel just to heat the cats up.

I'd like to see the datalogs, there is something else going on here.

 

Note: the dyno is a Mustang brand dyno.
I would like to see the logs, too, but I don't plan on ever taking my car there again.
Possible knock, but stock everything on 94 octane unleaded, it didn't seem likely, but I can't assume anything.
First round: guy almost burned my rear brakes off because he only used the cockpit button to disable traction control, which Does. Not. Work.
First round after pulling fuse 6: 605hp, complete with heat soak due to incompetence. Stock is supposed to be 670 at the wheels.
Added Amsoil to engine, trans, and rearend
Second round: again with the traction control, even with fuse 6 pulled, but this time it was Throttle Interference, no burning Brembo smell.
Pulled out fuse 36, same old lame old. 450hp or so. (No, I don't have the black key.)
Eventually, he fuddled his way to a 587hp pull second time around, but it was guzzling fuel as if it was supposed to be the air. last 1000 or so RPM were dismal, with massive droop in F/A ratio.
That's what I get for using the guy that was NOT the recommended guy on the dyno?
83 hp below stock.
Fabulous!
He didn't even know how to connect the big monitor on the wall to the dyno computer.

God I hate dealing with incompetent people. 18 hp less than the baseline pull.

I wish they would have told me they were using their "B" team guy for the dyno pulls on the weekend.

 

Note: the dyno is a Mustang brand dyno.
First round after pulling fuse 6: 605hp,Stock is supposed to be 670 at the wheels.
83 hp below stock.

A stock Hellcat A8 will never see more than 611whp on a mustang dyno.. so your pre-heat soak #'s are right about where they should be.. and yes, stock hellcat with cats will/can pull timing and add fuel after just one pull.
If all you care about is dyno sheet #'s, find a dynojet for a glory run and laminate the dyno sheet for display.

 

What was weird was that the fuel/air ratio line was very jagged in both instances. That just seems mighty weird to me.
I don't know what all the facts were.
He didn't know how to download a file of the results and give it to me.
I just got two printed pages with the first pull on them.
Fortunately, it was only 100 bucks per pull, and the labor to put in the oil was not terribly excessive.

So, the takeaway:
Never going back there, EVER.
If I need someone to change the oil who can actually blow the oil out of the trans cooler lines, I will just go to the Dodge dealer.
Impressed level: minus infinite.

 

So I sent my usual customer inquiry to HPTuners, to see if they are mean-spirited idiots.

We have received your request and our team will get back to you shortly. If you do not receive a confirmation email within a few minutes, please check your Junk/Spam folder.

General Information

Ticket ID​	#207868
First and Last Name​	Sum Gai
Email​	xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx(I blanked it out on this forum0

Subject: Product information. I want to tune the car, while maintaining a factory PCM separately that I can just drop back in if I screw it up too badly.

I have done the research and at this price range, it looks like most guys use HP tuners, so here I am. Plus, Diablo sport wouldn't even answer an inquiry, so desperate are they to not make sales. Can you just answer some questions? What does it take to basically get the most out of my stock Hellcat, primarily focusing on fuel mileage, taking maximum advantage of the available fuel I have,94 unleaded, keep running without catalysts okay, and also run on a dyno without choking to death with ABS and traction control and Tanntrum mode or whatever the hell else it pulls out of its hat. (the stock PCM) I also would like: data logging control over what engine does with higher than normal coolant temps other inputs that can be varied based on boost and overall output IN lieu of doing ten years of research to find everything you can tell me in five minutes, can you help me out? I a human being actually answers this without demaning my dox information at gunpoint, I will be happy to tell you my real contact info other than email. I'm not your competition, so don't worry.​

We will see how they respond, live, in surreal time.

 

You really expect to get help talking to folks like that? All HPtuners does is sell the tuning software. You need to find a decent tuner for more info.

 

No. I expect people to show their true colors.

I expect to find their corporate philosophy.

If they gleefully jump on any chance to ignore you instead of treating you like a potential customer, then they lose points.

Slurping up a bunch of personal information before I have even heard one word from them is not my idea of an intelligent business model.

However, many companies seem to have a masturbatory obsession with doing just that.

Hello, may I take your order?
Yes, two burgers and a side of fries and a shake, please
Oh, wait, first we need your home address, SIN, sperm sample, fingerprints, favorie colors, when your kids are most likely to be at home alone, phone number, email, and mother's maiden name.

These people need to get their heads out of each other's asses.

 

I'm pretty sure this guy is a Troll..!! You come off as a blundering idiot with your long ass ranting posts after posts. Sell your Hellcat and hope on board with those Chevy ford dudes. Good luck.

 

Speaking of true colors...

 

@MKL_DS maybe you have some information for this thread.

Linda

 

Controllers will add fuel for cat over temp protection. It may sound counter intuitive but think about it. Lean mixtures make more power and are HOT. Richer mixtures make less power and less heat. Tuners are always trying to find a balance between a lean a/f and generating too much heat causing burned pistons and/or detonation. By adding fuel you end up with a cooler combustion. Also, less power which means less cylinder pressure which also means less heat. The excess fuel itself probably acts to cool the cat also. Tunes with cat over temp protection turned off usually end up burning out the cats over time.

 

While a lean mixture is equated with hot and a rich mixture is equated with cool and there is some truth to that, while an overly rich mixture is one way to cause incomplete combustion it puts raw fuel into the converters. (It can also work to wash oil from the cylinder walls.) All automakers seek to not put excessive fuel in the engine because it can be burned in the converter and the excessive heat damages the converters.

The only exception I'm aware of is at cold start some engine controllers arrange to inject a bit more fuel -- this can done by a second injector pulse which puts "raw" fuel into the exhaust gases flowing out the combustion chamber --- which ends up in the converter where it does burn and gets the converters up to temperature and working sooner. But this is a relatively brief bit of overly rich fueling.

My info is the Hellcat engine PCM is locked. Tuners need to supply their own controller. Now, these might resort to dumping raw gasoline into the engine to "cool" the engine but it is IMHO lousy technique. The cure is as bad as the disease.

 

To the op... your dyno operator needs to learn more about Dodge cars. My pretty much stock hellcat ran just fine on the dyno. Nothing burned and no fail safe.

 

Yeah, according to the guy who referred me, I got the B team guy. What a waste of money. I hope the cats didn't get cooked.

 

Okay. In any case, nothing about what happened made me want to use that same guy OR keep a stock PCM. I have SEEN A/F ratio graphing for another car. It was this solid, steady line that traced across the bottom of the chart, not the jagged set of dragons' teeth I saw on my graph. (But it was around 10 to 1, for that one isolated car in that one case, I don't know how it looks in other guys' dyno charts.)

 

HP Tuners' polite and professional response:

Sum,

We offer custom tuning software (tools) that the professional tuner shop or hardcore enthusiast uses to create their own custom tunes.
While the MPVI2 (which comes with VCM Suite, VCM Editor and a programming cable) provides full tuning support for your vehicle, it does not include any base/canned tunes, nor can we provide any specific guidance when it comes to tuning.

You can, however, buy the MPVI2 and use it to collaborate with your favorite professional tuner--even if that tuner shop isn't local to you.
If both you and the shop you are working with have an MPVI/MPVI2, they can serve you via email.

The MPVI2 gives you the flexibility to work with a professional tuner or tune the vehicle yourself--if you aspire to do so.
Furthermore, places like The Tuning School offer books and training if you are looking for specific guidance.

With that noted, the MPVI2 comes with everything you need, minus credits.
The device, cable and software (tuning software and scanning software) are $299.99

It will run on any reasonably modern Windows 10 machine.
(4+ Gigs of RAM, small to mid sized laptop, Surface Pro, etc)

At the point of purchase or any time thereafter, you can add credits to cover the license fee for each VIN you tune, but you only consume credits (license fee) the first time you tune a new vehicle.
You can then tune that car for free after the initial credit consumption; you are not charged for making additional tuning revisions.

Most vehicles are 2 credits and credits are $49.99 each, though some vehicles are 4 credits, 6 credits, or 8 credits.
The complete list of applications and credits consumed for each is here: Supported Vehicles List – HPTuners

This "pay as you go" is far better for the pro and for the casual tuner, as you do not have to come thousands of dollars out of pocket for tuning software.
If a shop does thousands of tunes, they will buy thousands of licenses.
If you only need to tune 2 cars, you will only buy 2 licenses.
HP Tuners is infinitely scalable!

You can buy the MPVI 2 here: MPVI2 – HPTuners

You can add credits during checkout or you can buy them after you receive the device by creating a login at www.HPTuners.com and adding your device under "My Devices".

Once the device is added to your profile, simply click "Add Credits".

Training:
HP Tuners focuses on developing the best custom tuning software possible.
Though we support the functionality of the tool, we do not teach tuning theory, nor do we create base or "startup" calibrations.
However, there are many resources available to you if you'd like to learn how to tune.

First, there is the HP Tuners forum. Many shops and enthusiasts post their tuning experiences, exchange files and help each other out in the HP Tuners forum.
This is a valuable, free resource that we hope you use!
You can register here: HP Tuners Bulletin Board

We can not overstate the value of the HP Tuners forum.
Many shops and enthusiasts are eager to help!

You can also attend The Tuning School.
The Tuning School offers books that teach you how to tune vehicles using HP Tuners, including color photos and discussion of tuning theory.
Links to these and other resources are below. Thanks!

Free learning resources:
www.hptuners.com/forum
www.masterenginetuner.com

Inexpensive Books:
www.thetuningschool.com
www.lasotaracing.com
www.calibratedsuccess.com

Learn at home, in class or online:
www.thetuningschool.com
www.calibratedsuccess.com
www.EFIuniversity.com

PS: Also, please take the time to check out our knowledge base.
This link contains a vast amount of information as it relates to using HP Tuners and we definitely recommend it for power users and newcomers alike: https://support.hptuners.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/List

Jan Moeller
Western US & Canada Sales Manager
Gasoline Tuning Specialist
jmoeller@hptuners.com

Meanhwhile, it has been months and still not a peep out of Diablosport.

HP tuners FTW!

Evidently, there is more reason than just a more comprehensive tuning package for their products' dominance in the tuning sphere. They know how to treat people. Like they exist.

 

65hp below stock de-escalating to 83 hp below stock. Not stellar.

 

Just contacted them to ask them about it. It was instantly the "not our fault, must be the car" attitude. I reminded him that on the internet, it is commonly known that you pull fuse 6 to keep the traction control from kicking in. "Never heard of it."

Goodbye, forever. Goodbye after that. Eternities later, more "who were you?"

I contacted another dyno place that actually seems like they may be competent. How can I tell if any changes I make are working when the only thing they seem to have on sale at all times is canned excuses?

 

YES, WE DISABLED TRACTION CONTROL MANUALLY IN THE ON-SCREEN MENU BEFORE STARTING.

With disabled traction control, did all we could with the cockpit controls, and the car was massivly applying rear brakes.

So, pulled out FUSE NUMBER 36, and were able to run full throttle.

Next run, it was in Check Engine Crisis mode, and had to pull fuses 5 and 6 to get it to quit acting Amazing in the Desmond sense.

Then, to fully vomitize the dyno pull, it started barfing fuel like a sick drunk to cool off the precious catalytic converters, and chopped 18hp off. I thought, "wow that oil must suck" until the dyno guy pointed out that the second run, the A/F ratio absolutely plummeted.

A/F ratio was hideous after a certain point. At least it didn't fluid-lock the cylinders with one quart per stroke and bend a connecting rod.

So, if you are going to run your BONE STOCK HELLCAT on the dyno, I suggest you don't.

First, get an aftermarket PCM with a tune, and for God's sake dispose of the Catalytic Shriekers.

I don't needs something threatening to go all China Syndrome under my car if i lay into the throttle, no matter how much I like clean air.

Until you do, you are going to find your car is being choked by the stock PCM.

I am curious just how many other controls there are that it uses to kill all possible fun in the name of reducing warranty claims.

If there is a danger of overheating the catalytic converters, here's a clever clue: USE BIGGER ONES, MOPAR. No car should act stupid at WOT.

Only change to the car was changing the engine, transmission, and rear end oils.

Literally not one other thing done.

Dropped 18 hp (you could see on the graph where the fuel/air ratio went nutso.)

So, I have to refrigerate my catalysts to Save the Flatulent Whales or whatever?

I so curious how much power is laying in wait that will be released when the PCM isn't try to Save the Pandas or whatever.

Truly disgusted, but glad to have the information.

The second pull, it was climbing nicely but after a certain RPM, unlike first pull, it just went into sissy mode and started hosing the catalysts with fuel.

sigh Looks like Brer Fox is threatening to throw me in the briar patch. PCM, tune, no treehugalytic converters.

I was considering trying a K and N drop-in filter, too, but I figured, nah. Now I'm thinking of waiting until the car is sorted out before doing that. When you can drop 3 percent due to car just randomly deciding it was Crazy Time, you aren't really dealing with a consistent test baseline to turn into an accurate experiment.

Gee, I guess the missing catalyts would mean I could use that new exhaust system on here someone is touting... but, with a proper ECM, etc. Having the engine go into shriek mode to protect the precious widdle catalysts failed to impress me.

Actually to get the traction control totally off what you do is Win traction control was on you hold the traction control button for 5 to 6 seconds until it says stability control is off… Then there’s no traction control whatsoever no breaks… As far as the converters I was told on my redeye that any fuel used under 92 Caused catastrophic damage to the converters, it was actually a Bulletin from the manufacturer sent to the dealers,
Do a mid muffler delete kit, and why worry about Dyno ?

 

Actually to get the traction control totally off what you do is Win traction control was on you hold the traction control button for 5 to 6 seconds until it says stability control is off… Then there’s no traction control whatsoever no breaks… As far as the converters I was told on my redeye that any fuel used under 92 Caused catastrophic damage to the converters, it was actually a Bulletin from the manufacturer sent to the dealers,
Do a mid muffler delete kit, and why worry about Dyno ?

What is your reason to delete the mufflers? Hellcat exhaust is capable of flowing more HP then most street cars will make. I think deleting mid mufflers has a slim to none chance of making more HP & TQ. I think deleting the mid mufflers does have a very high chance of making less HP & TQ.

California only has 91 oct it seems from the several tuning questions asked on here. So 92 oct harming the converters does not seem right. I am curious to the wording in the letter. I don't know the chemistry of gasoline. I have some understanding of octane. 91 or 93 oct is not supposed to change exhaust temp. If it does change temp. It could not be enough difference to hurt the converter. Leaded fuel will hurt the converter and exhaust sensors.

 

94 octane.
Dyno because I wanted to quantify things with specificity.
I LIKE how the car sounds, stock.
We went through the entire algorithm to cancel the traction control, and it sill came back. This has happened to others, also.

 

Jesus loves you, whoever you are.

 

Jesus loves you to Himmelkat,
He's just wandering exactly what kind of person you are as are more than a few of us I am sure..
God Bless.

 

Another forum sure sucks. They tried to dox me when they didn't like my ideas, and tried to hack my Facebook profile. I notice people dropping in here with very low post counts being obnoxious. Curious. This forum is FAR safer for you and those about whom you care.

 

They will pull timing and add fuel after just one pull. Interesting. I am guessing that out on the highway, with plentiful cooling airflow bathing the car's relevant parts, that this is not an issue. Most dyno places seem to really skimp on airflow. One 2' diameter lazily-turning fan does not adequate anything make.

I wonder how the dyno numbers would be in a dyno up in the frozen North, where heat soak would not be a problem, as the lower overall air temp would fight against heat soak, in the usual lack-of-significant-airflow dyno cells.

I figure with the supercharging adding about 100 degrees or more to the air temperature, one might encounter close to ideal combustion air temperatures coupled with adequately low overall temps for everything to yield results more reflective of real-world (aka, on the street, not the drag strip) performance, where sheer air volume and velocity due to car motion lead to calmer overall mechanical temperatures.

It's not just about dyno numbers. It's about the parameters that engender greater performance that are contributing factors to the output that is most accurately measurable on the dynamometer. The dyno isn't the point, it's a means of garnering useful information.