[2ndgen]

Satera wouldn't have been able to fix that issue either. The fact is the D170 makes so much boost that it's not safe on 93 octane. As Speedy stated, without bypass adaptation to reduce boost level at WOT, you simply can't go WOT safely on the D170 on 93 octane. A tuner could retard the Hell out of the timing to possibly get it to run on 93 octane at WOT but it would run quite poorly if it was even safe at all.

Can't the tune control the boost bypass valve?

 

[DVLMKR]

Look you guys can talk all you want about 93 91 26 42 85 and what ever other number comes to mind and I can tell you I have run 91 and 93 and 85 in all combinations without issue. True I dont go to the track but I can tell you I am consistently in it hard and I mean fricken hard with out issue. Oil is clean and straight and it runs like a swiss clock.

 

[Speedy]

I WOULD NOT go WOT AT ALL in a Demon 170 on pump gasoline, 91 or 93 nor would I go WOT on race gasoline either 109, 116, etc. The car is designed to make power on E85 and won't know you have race gasoline in the tank so you're in the same bad position as 91 or 93. You will almost for sure end up with problems from what I'm seeing in my logs. I've posted screen shots from my Demon 170 data logs on this forum showing the problems with pump gasoline and leaning on these cars. I did a video on my YT channel on this as well with log data presented.

I also wouldn't run full E85 or above either. I need to do more testing but it's looking like the injectors might max out in cool air and E85. The car makes full power at E65 for a reason and that keeps pressure off the fuel system's capacity.

Yes you can for sure data log with HPTuners without unlocking the computer. My 170 is factory stock no computer changes and I data log all the time. It's very useful.

No the bypass valve is not tied to ethanol content. It SHOULD have been IMO but for whatever reason they didn't.

Everyone has widely accepted that the "safe" setup for pump gasoline was 16-17psi of boost. That doesn't change just because Dodge put out a car that makes 22 psi on pump gas.

 

[stereolab42]

So a Redeye with DC stage 2 can get 837HP on pump gas and nobody's complaining about that. But when a D170 gets 900HP on pump gas, with a highly upgraded engine+externals, it's the end of the world. More crack-pipe logic.

 

[Slowpoke387]

So a Redeye with DC stage 2 can get 837HP on pump gas and nobody's complaining about that. But when a D170 gets 900HP on pump gas, with a highly upgraded engine+externals, it's the end of the world. More crack-pipe logic.

Sorry but im siding with Speedy. At least he has data to base his statements. Crack pipe logic is when people have nothing to back up their opinions and say people who do are using crack pipe logic lol.
Of course this is just my opinion with no data, so using my own logic here - crack pipe. Dammit. Who’s on first…

 

[Speedy]

Has nothing to do with strength of the engine. It has to do with the timing being super low and the heat that generates at 22psi of boost. I've not seen logs from a stage 2 RE to know if it's a problem or not, but it's definitely not 22psi from the blower either.

If I had to guess, this is why we're hearing about some 170s having catalytic converter failures.

 

[DemonicCat]

^ Agree but there is a reason for that. I don’t think it’s just about the power with X fuel used. Both RE and 170 are 6.2 L. I doubt very much Dodge would have hit Emissions and target power level/ET times with the 170 on Just gas with 5Y/60k warranty. If they could it would have been done with almost drop in plug and play, it was already developed in the Hellaphant. But it has 50 cubes more compared to an Engine that already was costing them emission & CAFE points. distinct reason why the Hellaphant is crate engine for pre 1976 vehicles only. Too bad hands were tied by emissions and upper cooperate handcuffs.

Totally agree they could have managed Fuel Mapping/Spark timing table tied along with boost dump much better as Speedy indicated above. Where Engineering lost an opportunity is the integration of the Fuel/Alcohol integration. I know it’s not perfect but if you play by a couple of rules it can been great. This is obviously opinion but also based on owning a RE with 21k mi and a 170 with 2,500 miles both without issue aside from 170 being delivered with 1 Qt oil over fill and a Exhaust rattle that was resolved with out issue. Also correct is the Speedy comment on Data Logging, the PCM DOES NOT need to be unlocked to Data Log and his comment on “do not fully stand on it with just pump gas”. With any luck a factory revision tune will be written to dump boost and set timing proportional to what is needed for just pump gas or lower than E85 levels in tank. Just my .02 worth.

 

[Luci 36]

Look you guys can talk all you want about 93 91 26 42 85 and what ever other number comes to mind and I can tell you I have run 91 and 93 and 85 in all combinations without issue. True I dont go to the track but I can tell you I am consistently in it hard and I mean fricken hard with out issue. Oil is clean and straight and it runs like a swiss clock.

Atta boy!!!

 

[Reaperhwk]

So the main issue is that the AVERAGE person buying this car doesn’t data log or have any warning in the manual not to go WOT on pump gas. If this is all true there will be a lot of more blown engines that Dodge would need to pay for (and affect the 170 value) because of poor engineering. Major fail on Dodge part, class action lawsuit level of fail of it’s not documented to the end user.

a redeye can fuel up on premium gas and go balls to the wall with no issues.

 

[stereolab42]

Has nothing to do with strength of the engine. It has to do with the timing being super low and the heat that generates at 22psi of boost. I've not seen logs from a stage 2 RE to know if it's a problem or not, but it's definitely not 22psi from the blower either.

If I had to guess, this is why we're hearing about some 170s having catalytic converter failures.

And I'm sure dozens of Dodge engineers had no idea of the load such factors would generate and all of the enhancements they made to the D170 engine over the Redeye (for an extra 70 HP on pump) had no way of handling this. I guess the real experts have spoken, let's just all hand in our keys.

 

[DemonicCat]

yes I feel that is probably going to happen to some folks who think they can jump in stomp it with what ever fuel. This Is exactly why I would like to see the tune code rewritten to set boost and timing more conservative based on lower alcohol content. E65 be safe

 

[DemonicCat]

The E85 near me is more like E70 to E74 that is perfect. No, more isn’t better in this case like E85 0r higher… E90 race. You could run out of Injector % duty or pumps ability. A few folks with more time testing, Track time and solid testing with Data Logging have substantiated this. I would listen to them they have the testing, logging and are ahead of the curve being they got the car sooner and have put in more time Data Logging. I will get there just a little more late to the party, but listen to them we know the ones that have experience, common sense and proven data facts that prevail.

 

[D0305]

I will wish we had E85 when I had my turbo Buicks! The octane rating E85 has an octane rating of 105, which is higher than regular gasoline's 87 or premium gasoline's 91-93. This higher octane rating makes E85 more resistant to knock, allowing for increased timing advance and boost pressure.

More importantly ethanol has a cooling effect that's nearly ten times greater than gasoline. This cooling effect creates a dense, oxygen-rich intake charge that increases combustion energy.

 

[Blkout]

Look you guys can talk all you want about 93 91 26 42 85 and what ever other number comes to mind and I can tell you I have run 91 and 93 and 85 in all combinations without issue. True I dont go to the track but I can tell you I am consistently in it hard and I mean fricken hard with out issue. Oil is clean and straight and it runs like a swiss clock.

You're on borrowed time if you're WOT on pump gas.

 

[Blkout]

Has nothing to do with strength of the engine. It has to do with the timing being super low and the heat that generates at 22psi of boost. I've not seen logs from a stage 2 RE to know if it's a problem or not, but it's definitely not 22psi from the blower either.

If I had to guess, this is why we're hearing about some 170s having catalytic converter failures.

You've done all you can do to educate them, some people got to learn the hard way.

 

[Blkout]

So the main issue is that the AVERAGE person buying this car doesn’t data log or have any warning in the manual not to go WOT on pump gas. If this is all true there will be a lot of more blown engines that Dodge would need to pay for (and affect the 170 value) because of poor engineering. Major fail on Dodge part, class action lawsuit level of fail of it’s not documented to the end user.

a redeye can fuel up on premium gas and go balls to the wall with no issues.

Yep, that's because a Redeye doesn't make more than 15psi of boost. As Speedy stated, 16-17psi is about the max on these cars on pump gas before you're on borrowed time.

 

[Blkout]

Can't the tune control the boost bypass valve?

I've never seen a tuner reliably do it yet on this platform.

 

[coanan]

I've never seen a tuner reliably do it yet on this platform.

Need to see Satera. He showed it being done on a dyno with his tune and setup.

 

[coanan]

 

[Under-Pressure]

And I'm sure dozens of Dodge engineers had no idea of the load such factors would generate and all of the enhancements they made to the D170 engine over the Redeye (for an extra 70 HP on pump) had no way of handling this. I guess the real experts have spoken, let's just all hand in our keys.

Have you data logged your car on 93 octane / E10? I would like see if your stock tune differs from mine & several others I have seen.